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Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

thecorrespondent.com

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Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#41
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what over-collateralised loans are to suggest a solution, but I'm trusting you. I agree that there are cases where blockchain don't have alternatives. Those are where you want a decentralized ledger and you can't trust anyone. It can accomplish that, but is extremely inefficient doing it, so you really need to decide whether the cost is worth it.

> I don't know what over-collateralised loans are to suggest a solution, A loan with a <100% loan-to-value ratio to the value of the supporting collateral, like traditional mortgages.

Ah, I think I understand, because of the home + the money I already put in in it?

Why does that have to be decentralized? I already can make a loan against a mortgage and to do it I don't need to use as much of energy to power Switzerland.

Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#42
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone can show me a non-blockchain design for decentralised over-collateralised loans Since “decentralized finance” is typically defined in terms of blockchain use, there are, by the standard definitions, no non-blockchain decentralized finance solutions of any kind.

Sure, but the normal attack on blockchain is that you can do it without that tech - I think DeFi is genuinely useful and I don’t know how you could implement it with the same guarantees without a blockchain

> I think DeFi is genuinely useful and I don’t know how you could implement it with the same guarantees without a blockchain

If you can't define the problem without reference to blockchain, then no one can offer a non-blockchain solution. That doesn't mean there isn't a non-blockchain solution to the actual problem, just that you are so wrapped up on a preconceived solution that you can't specify what the problem is separate from the solution you've already chosen.

Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#43

https://arweave.org - pay once, store forever. decentralized storage network. backed by a16z, coinbase, and more. https://www.hyperledger.org/learn/publications/soramitsu-cas... - central bank digital currency in Cambodia built on Hyperledger Iroha https://defipulse.com - $6b+ locked in DeFi applications I don't see how tech inclined people don't see value in what's being created right now unless your eyes are closed…

Echoing your comments:

Playing with defi applications and dex’s this week got me pretty excited about where the space is headed.

There are now smart contracts that exist where the admin controls are disabled and users can do things like flash loans where you put up some collateral borrow huge sums of tokenized money and then pay it back in seconds or years later. No paper work, no counter party risk, intermediary is code. You pay gas fees and whatever apr you agreed to. https://dydx.exchange/

Dex’s are becoming awesome, https://uniswap.org is friggin rad. So easy to use.

There’s obviously going to be tons more scams and projects that blow up or get hacked, but out of this will come some very useful finance applications that never existed before.

Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#44
post #30
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what over-collateralised loans are to suggest a solution, but I'm trusting you. I agree that there are cases where blockchain don't have alternatives. Those are where you want a decentralized ledger and you can't trust anyone. It can accomplish that, but is extremely inefficient doing it, so you really need to decide whether the cost is worth it.

Why’s it inefficient at doing it? Proof of Stake chains have low fees and very low energy costs. Edit: also, it’s a way of borrowing money immediately from others by locking up collateral until you’ve repaid the loan, else at a certain time the collateral is sent to the loaner. It’s a really cool way of decentralising micro loans and removing financial risk to the loaner. For people who don’t have access to credit it…

Back in 2018 it was estimated that bitcoin network itself used more energy than Switzerland. In addition to the energy this also translates to global warming.

Anyway you mentioned "If someone can show me a non-blockchain design for decentralised over-collateralised loans then I’ll concede and go back to full skeptic :)"

My question is, why it has to be decentralized and come with that huge cost?

Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#45

https://arweave.org - pay once, store forever. decentralized storage network. backed by a16z, coinbase, and more. https://www.hyperledger.org/learn/publications/soramitsu-cas... - central bank digital currency in Cambodia built on Hyperledger Iroha https://defipulse.com - $6b+ locked in DeFi applications I don't see how tech inclined people don't see value in what's being created right now unless your eyes are closed…

What's interesting tech what isn't necessarily whats great for end users. Would you trust your mission critical data to a decentralized store? I wouldn't. What's the latency and throughput of Arweave? Can I serve 100k QPS off of it? What happens in the end of a protocol hack or client, bug? We've seen many blockchains destroyed by bugs and flaws, and we've seen others just fade.

I mean, we've already gone through several distributed file stores, FreeNet, eDonkey, Gnutella, OpenNap, etc. They were still attackable by organizations like the RIAA, but more than that, they were slow and unreliable. Adding financial incentives in I don't really think will improve things that much. How many people are running Ethereum clients and yet DApps are horrifically slow.

Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#46
I think it would be cool if there were some sort of currency kids could use in exchange for screen time.

Giving real money to kids as a reward has always been a bit iffy. What are they going to spend it on? Candy? Video games?

Screen time would probably be better since its something they’re going to consume multiple times everyday, but also something parents want to control.

Instead of giving them cash for completing chores, or getting good grades, give them something they could exchange for screen time. Let them earn interest accumulated screen time, or trade it away to their siblings. That’ll help them build some basic financial sense without them actually holding currency your family might need.

Would this need a blockchain? I’m not sure. I imagine a single company trying to do it wouldn’t go so well since there’s so a couple closed off ecosystems out there (ie Apple), and collecting data on children has legal problems.

Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#47
post #8

This has been posted multiple times already. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24241488 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24246212 3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24243496

And the top comment - that blockchains resist financial censorship - is still extremely insightful. Blockchains are truthful in a way like no other ledger (all of which are ultimately mutable at an individual entities whim). Bank transfers mean 2 transactors, 2 banks and at least one government think the transaction is appropriate. Blockchain cuts most of that out. This is clearly transformative. Governments are one…

> This is clearly transformative. [...] The implications are still unclear

Around the time Bitcoin originated (or at least when the name was finally decided upon and the domain registered), the first commercial Android device was launched.

Since then the latter creation has put interconnected computers literally into the hands of virtually everyone on the planet, allowing for numerous other technologies, industries and markets to be built upon it.

That's clearly transformative.

What has "blockchain" transformed? Still unclear? After 12 years, that means clear.

Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#48

https://arweave.org - pay once, store forever. decentralized storage network. backed by a16z, coinbase, and more. https://www.hyperledger.org/learn/publications/soramitsu-cas... - central bank digital currency in Cambodia built on Hyperledger Iroha https://defipulse.com - $6b+ locked in DeFi applications I don't see how tech inclined people don't see value in what's being created right now unless your eyes are closed…

There is a wide gulf between the claims of the Blockchain community and the technological reality. For example, I hadn't heard of Arweave before you mentioned it so I looked into it.

From the splash page: "Store data, permanently." "creating truly permanent data storage for the first time"

From the 'yellow paper'.

"[T]he core Arweave team does not expect that the network as it is currently formulated will continue to produce blocks in true perpetuity. This does not, however, mean that we expect that the information stored inside the weave will be lost after the final block is mined. It is our expectation that when eventually a permanent information storage system more suited to the challenges of the time emerges, the Arweave’s data will be ‘subsumed’ into this network. After the mining of the final block, the financial incentive mechanisms for data preservation will subside and give way to social incentives for data preservation"

The "truly permanent" aspect is based on hand waving and hoping that this system (which was designed with a finite lifetime) will be picked up and stored by someone else.

I have nothing against crypto or this idea (in fact I like that someone is working on this!), but the baseless claims, the barely-honest way that companies present their technology, the blatantly unsolved problems that underly the big claims and dreams - it's all so exhausting. Far too often when I investigate projects in the Blockchain space I try to understand how a company has achieved a shockingly impressive goal only to find that underneath the hype there is no solution, just blind faith and a promise that the core problems will be solved in the future.

I don't know how you can look at the Blockchain space and see anything other than: interesting but very incomplete tech propping up preposterous claims.

Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#49
post #4

There seems to be two camps amongst my tech friends when it comes to block chain. The first thinks it's going to change the world and are fully invested in the whole block chain ecosystem, from Bitcoin to Decentralized Finance systems, Identity etc.... Most of them got into Bitcoin early and made some money and have been chasing that success ever since. The second camp believes that block chain is cool technically bu…

The only people I personally know in the former group were ideologically pre-aligned towards any currency that promises anti-government or anti-inflation capabilities. The people I’m thinking of were either libertarians, gold bugs, or both. I don’t actually know anyone who was persuaded by the merits of bitcoin or similar.

I know some that bought some Bitcoin in the very early days because a friend said so or something and ended making a lot of money. They're now Bitcoin fanatics despite not really understanding it. The logic is that they got rich from it so everyone else can do the same. But yes, the majority are more libertarian or anarchist leaning for sure and that's how they were introduced to Bitcoin early.

Re: Blockchain, the Solution for Almost Nothing

#50
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the top comment - that blockchains resist financial censorship - is still extremely insightful. Blockchains are truthful in a way like no other ledger (all of which are ultimately mutable at an individual entities whim). Bank transfers mean 2 transactors, 2 banks and at least one government think the transaction is appropriate. Blockchain cuts most of that out. This is clearly transformative. Governments are one…

> This is clearly transformative. [...] The implications are still unclear Around the time Bitcoin originated (or at least when the name was finally decided upon and the domain registered), the first commercial Android device was launched. Since then the latter creation has put interconnected computers literally into the hands of virtually everyone on the planet, allowing for numerous other technologies, industries a…

That isn't a very solid argument - they had ISPs and TCP/IP and emails in 1970s [0] and yet HTTP/Netscape/Amazon/Google/the rest of what the modern internet is used for didn't exist before the 90s. Transformation doesn't have to happen quickly.

[0] https://www.wired.com/2012/12/queen-and-the-internet/

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