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Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

medium.com

41–50 of 166 posts

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not right about the waste. High level radioactive waste will fit in a space about 7 meters high and the area of a football field. That's all nuclear waste since we started operating nuclear reactors... worldwide.

It's not necessarily the amount of waste that is the problem, it's the incredibly long duration of its radioactivity. At some point we will need super long term storage, and it's true that there is no viable solution out there yet. Even the most sophisticated facilities can not guarantee that no leakage will contaminate the surroundings at some point. But as I said, I think finding a solution for this should not be o…

Long term storage of high-level nuclear waste is not a technical problem - there are a number of viable solutions. All of them boil down to "dig a deep hole and put the nuclear waste there."

The only problem is the political problem of choosing the sites.

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not right about the waste. High level radioactive waste will fit in a space about 7 meters high and the area of a football field. That's all nuclear waste since we started operating nuclear reactors... worldwide.

It's not necessarily the amount of waste that is the problem, it's the incredibly long duration of its radioactivity. At some point we will need super long term storage, and it's true that there is no viable solution out there yet. Even the most sophisticated facilities can not guarantee that no leakage will contaminate the surroundings at some point. But as I said, I think finding a solution for this should not be o…

>...It's not necessarily the amount of waste that is the problem, it's the incredibly long duration of its radioactivity.

In terms of the waste, right now nuclear waste can and should be recycled which would reduce the amount of waste: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste

Soon it will be possible to use most of the waste as fuel:

"...Fast reactors can "burn" long lasting nuclear transuranic waste (TRU) waste components (actinides: reactor-grade plutonium and minor actinides), turning liabilities into assets. Another major waste component, fission products (FP), would stabilize at a lower level of radioactivity than the original natural uranium ore it was attained from in two to four centuries, rather than tens of thousands of years"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_fast_reactor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor

While there are issues with nuclear power, the worry people have about nuclear waste is greatly overblown to say the least. The amounts generated are manageable and in a relatively short amount of time we can use most of this "waste" to generate electricity.

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#43
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same sense that we will all be saved by CO2 capturing devices? These kinds of reactors (Travelling Wave Reactor etc.) you mention are vapourware and have been for quite some time. And I highly doubt the "which destroys it forever" part, - really, no waste at all, magic you say? This is just more of "Future Tech will solve this" externalization of problems.

> really, no waste at all, magic you say? The core problem with nuclear waste is that it's energetic. There are a number of designs that burn up waste; if we were building and testing them, poor reactor types could be abandoned and better ones could be improved. We're not doing that primarily because "nuclear" is a scary word owing to activist efforts decades ago. > This is just more of "Future Tech will solve this"…

> because "nuclear" is a scary word owing to activist efforts decades ago.

Right, activists... not those pesky meltdowns spewing radioactive waste across Europe and into the pacific, it was the activists.

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> really, no waste at all, magic you say? The core problem with nuclear waste is that it's energetic. There are a number of designs that burn up waste; if we were building and testing them, poor reactor types could be abandoned and better ones could be improved. We're not doing that primarily because "nuclear" is a scary word owing to activist efforts decades ago. > This is just more of "Future Tech will solve this"…

> because "nuclear" is a scary word owing to activist efforts decades ago. Right, activists... not those pesky meltdowns spewing radioactive waste across Europe and into the pacific, it was the activists.

All the meltdowns in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s are what explains the automatic flinch that western cultures have had since the late 60s? Huh.

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#45
The article doesn't fairly compare with the risks of say, oil. Look at Exxon for a good example of how costly (and seemingly never ending) the damage and cleanup can be. And what to make of the earthquakes caused by fracking?

I live in an area with multiple nuclear plants. We've never had an issue with them, although there was one false alarm. Even then, nobody seems to feel very unsafe about it around here. Property values are just as high as they always were.

We did have a natural gas plant blow up. So I'm not very convinced of the nuclear dangers by comparison. Especially since nuclear technology keeps getting better, safer, and more efficient. That can't be said for much of the fossil fuel industry.

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#46
post #31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same sense that we will all be saved by CO2 capturing devices? These kinds of reactors (Travelling Wave Reactor etc.) you mention are vapourware and have been for quite some time. And I highly doubt the "which destroys it forever" part, - really, no waste at all, magic you say? This is just more of "Future Tech will solve this" externalization of problems.

Recycling for spent fuels is a proven technology. Problem is ... it creates weapons grade Plutonium as the product, out of Depleted Uranium(stuffs so safe US military puts into tank shells as weights). You know, Plutonium is a highly toxic heavy metal, and a bit radioactive, so,

> Problem is ... it creates weapons grade Plutonium as the product, out of Depleted Uranium(stuffs so safe US military puts into tank shells as weights).

Calling this the problem is just more fear mongering. The hard part about building a uranium-based bomb is getting weapons-grade uranium, because the bomb is simpler but U-235 is only 0.7% of natural uranium and is hard to separate from U-238 because they're chemically identical. The hard part about building a plutonium-based bomb is getting the implosion right. Making weapons-grade plutonium is relatively easy -- you expose U-238 to neutrons and some of the uranium turns into plutonium, then you can chemically separate the plutonium. But then you need a sophisticated bomb instead of a sophisticated centrifuge. It's not actually easier. That's why most nascent programs don't generally even try to make plutonium.

On top of that, you can design a reactor that produces enough other Plutonium isotopes that it makes the Plutonium-239 totally useless for a bomb, because they're even harder to separate from one another than U-235 is from U-238.

Also, the nuclear waste which sticks around for 24,000 years? That's the plutonium. The existing reactors already make it, because they contain U-238 and neutrons. It's the thing we already have, don't want and newer reactors can get rid of.

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#47

Not sure what to make of this article. Nuclear power is by far the cleanest and safest way of generating energy for both humankind and nature. Chernobyl was ancient and outdated, which caused issues. And Fukushima had to withstand an earthquake and tsunami. And even then the radiation only killed 1 person. Even wind-turbines cause more damage by killing many, many birds. They aren't as reliable and they certainly cau…

Wind turbines kill a negligible number of birds compared to other threats. https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-scienc... It's not actually known definitively how many people Fukushima killed, but it is known definitively that the final economic costs wildly outweighed the "cheap" energy it produced. https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/8/12/1301/pdf Nuclear is not clean. There is still no solution to nucl…

>..Wind turbines kill a negligible number of birds compared to other threats.

The source you list gives an estimate for bird deaths that is an order of magnitude less than the Audubon society or the US Fish and Wildlife service. But the issue isn't so much the number of birds, but the type:

>...Although fatality rates for raptors may be lower compared to passerines, raptors are especially vulnerable to collisions due to their flight behaviors. Given the life history traits of raptors (i.e., long-lived and low reproductive rates) their populations are more at risk of decline from the number of different sources of impacts that affect these species on a daily basis.

https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthusiasts/threats-to-birds/...

This isn't to say that means we should drop wind, but we shouldn't hand wave away the issue.

>...It's not actually known definitively how many people Fukushima killed, but it is known definitively that the final economic costs wildly outweighed the "cheap" energy it produced.

The death rate from Fukishima is far less than the death rate from any properly working fossil fuels source (or wind or rooftop solar for that matter)

>...but it is known definitively that the final economic costs wildly outweighed the "cheap" energy it produced.

This is an argument to move away from 50 year old plant designs into something more modern and even safer.

>...And considering the number of accidents to date - and their economic cost - nuclear certainly isn't safe either. Is it really a good idea to create pools of extremely toxic heavy metal waste which is also radioactive?

In terms of safety, no major power source has as good of a safety record as nuclear. In terms of nuclear waste, as many people have already said in this discussion, it is very low volume, could be recycled right now and eventually most of it can be used as fuel on 4th gen reactors.

>...It also isn't cheap. Renewables have been consistently undercut the cost of nuclear electricity, and that's without any significant push towards an improved smart grid, a combination of centralised and local distribution, and clean pumped storage facilities that would be possible with a Green New Deal.

It is possible there will be some major advances in grid storage that will allow us to stop using natural gas to cover for the intermittent nature of wind and solar. But what if that doesn't pan out? The dangers we are facing in the coming decades are immense. Is your fear of nuclear power so great that if you had to choose, you would prefer the world to suffer through catastrophic climate change rather than use nuclear power?

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#48
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this falls into the category of the solution of "X" is more "X". I'm usually skeptical of arguments like these especially when "X" is complex, potentially harmful, or offered as a magic bullet. In your case in order to validate claims, I have to be a nuclear scientist to understand the potential ramifications of your argument before I can fully understand the pros/cons. If as an engineer, I cannot afford the time…

The same way politicians build bridges and operate air traffic control systems: by hiring experts to do it.

I feel you're being pedantic here.

When bridges fail, they don't affect potentially millions of people's health. Nor does when an ATC system fail at an airport -- traffic can just be rerouted to other airports.

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#49

Not sure what to make of this article. Nuclear power is by far the cleanest and safest way of generating energy for both humankind and nature. Chernobyl was ancient and outdated, which caused issues. And Fukushima had to withstand an earthquake and tsunami. And even then the radiation only killed 1 person. Even wind-turbines cause more damage by killing many, many birds. They aren't as reliable and they certainly cau…

Human factors are always an issue. In the US there's a lot of regulations that are being relaxed to allow nuclear power plants to continue to function. This is the issue I've always seen.

Yeah it’s called “kick an old can” down the road rather than throw it away.

It’s easier to rewrite some words on paper than do actual planning, and implementation of upgrade work.

A rich nation seeks financial efficiency, circling around tried and true solutions, whittling them down to pointless husks. Costing it self reliability and resiliency.

With big projects like nuclear plants and nation states, only so much whittling of resiliency can happen before ... poor. The structural support fails and the systems is no more.

Re: Data from Chernobyl and Fukushima provide answers about the risks of nuclear

#50

Not sure what to make of this article. Nuclear power is by far the cleanest and safest way of generating energy for both humankind and nature. Chernobyl was ancient and outdated, which caused issues. And Fukushima had to withstand an earthquake and tsunami. And even then the radiation only killed 1 person. Even wind-turbines cause more damage by killing many, many birds. They aren't as reliable and they certainly cau…

"Not sure what to make of this article. Nuclear power is by far the cleanest and safest way of generating energy"

Did you even read the article? Or at least the summary? It's a pro nuclear piece.

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