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Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

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Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#71

Post by Jedd »

blaser-waffle wrote: post #69
Jedd wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is that horrendous? Hmm. Imagine that you never had to consider any kind of unstated, fuzzy mathematical wrangling at restaurants, hairdressers, hotels, in taxis, at stores, etc - your entire life every financial transaction was straightforward. If you came from that environment, this arrangement would seem horrendous (and annoying). I understand that there's some cultural exceptionalism involved - there always…

Calculating 10% ain't that hard killer -- just move the decimal point over. 36.22 becomes 3.6. Multiply that by 2, round up/down as you feel is warranted, and go with it. Plenty of the card readers even offer pre-calculated options when paying with debit/credit (usually 15%, 18%, and 20%). If that's too difficult, horrendous, and annoying to do then chances are you shouldn't be eating out in the first place.

Thanks, but as a metric-loving Australian, you don't need to espouse the benefits of base-10 to me.

My point remains that forcing everyone to consider a tip of varying amounts in a wide range of social / fiscal interactions, is a needless cognitive burden.

Approximately 95% of the planet gets by somewhere between 'just fine' and 'much better' without it.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#72

Post by boring_twenties »

Jedd wrote: post #71
blaser-waffle wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calculating 10% ain't that hard killer -- just move the decimal point over. 36.22 becomes 3.6. Multiply that by 2, round up/down as you feel is warranted, and go with it. Plenty of the card readers even offer pre-calculated options when paying with debit/credit (usually 15%, 18%, and 20%). If that's too difficult, horrendous, and annoying to do then chances are you shouldn't be eating out in the first place.

Thanks, but as a metric-loving Australian, you don't need to espouse the benefits of base-10 to me. My point remains that forcing everyone to consider a tip of varying amounts in a wide range of social / fiscal interactions, is a needless cognitive burden. Approximately 95% of the planet gets by somewhere between 'just fine' and 'much better' without it.

I've never been to Australia, but my experience traveling in Germany, France and the Netherlands is that service ranges from "adequate" at best to "abysmal," with the average case being much closer to the latter.

In the US, I'd say service is "excellent" more than 95% of the time, and I don't think I can recall a single instance of worse than "adequate" in my life.

I have no idea if tipping sufficiently explains this, but it sure seems at least plausible...

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#73

Post by Jedd »

boring_twenties wrote: post #72
Jedd wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, but as a metric-loving Australian, you don't need to espouse the benefits of base-10 to me. My point remains that forcing everyone to consider a tip of varying amounts in a wide range of social / fiscal interactions, is a needless cognitive burden. Approximately 95% of the planet gets by somewhere between 'just fine' and 'much better' without it.

I've never been to Australia, but my experience traveling in Germany, France and the Netherlands is that service ranges from "adequate" at best to "abysmal," with the average case being much closer to the latter. In the US, I'd say service is "excellent" more than 95% of the time, and I don't think I can recall a single instance of worse than "adequate" in my life. I have no idea if tipping sufficiently explains this…

FWIW, my anecdata is different. I've travelled - both short work stints and holidays - in ~30 countries over the space of a few decades.

I don't know if I could confidently pick the worst service experience across that time, but a sit-down dining comedy club in Manhattan (NY, USA) would probably be towards the top of the list.

I tend to be non-demanding, accommodating, and convivial etc, so that may have skewed most of my experiences across Asia and Europe towards the positive end of the spectrum.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#74

Post by apple4ever »

tony101 wrote: post #7
jszymborski wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and while we're at it, include the taxes!

I think separately listing taxes has the benefit of transparency - you know how much the government is taking and can make more informed electoral decisions.

Not sure why this got downvoted. Absolutely you should know what you are paying so you can make informed electoral decisions.

You can't assume "everybody" knows.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#75

Post by boring_twenties »

Jedd wrote: post #73
boring_twenties wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been to Australia, but my experience traveling in Germany, France and the Netherlands is that service ranges from "adequate" at best to "abysmal," with the average case being much closer to the latter. In the US, I'd say service is "excellent" more than 95% of the time, and I don't think I can recall a single instance of worse than "adequate" in my life. I have no idea if tipping sufficiently explains this…

FWIW, my anecdata is different. I've travelled - both short work stints and holidays - in ~30 countries over the space of a few decades. I don't know if I could confidently pick the worst service experience across that time, but a sit-down dining comedy club in Manhattan (NY, USA) would probably be towards the top of the list. I tend to be non-demanding, accommodating, and convivial etc, so that may have skewed most…

There are some other contenders for "worst," but this is the most fun story to tell.

Restaurant in the Netherlands. We walk in, there's a podium and a sign to please wait for the hostess. We wait for several minutes, finally get impatient and walk around the restaurants. Find two young girls chatting away in the back. They notice us, but continue their conversation for another minute, then ask us what we want. We ask to be seated.

No problem, they seat us. Another 5 or so minutes go by, we get up and find the girls again. "Can we have some menus, please?"

It didn't get any better from there :P

Ever since that I avoid all sit down restaurants in that country, full stop. Luckily, I don't mind döner kebab for breakfast lunch and dinner!

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#76

Post by Jedd »

boring_twenties wrote: post #75
Jedd wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, my anecdata is different. I've travelled - both short work stints and holidays - in ~30 countries over the space of a few decades. I don't know if I could confidently pick the worst service experience across that time, but a sit-down dining comedy club in Manhattan (NY, USA) would probably be towards the top of the list. I tend to be non-demanding, accommodating, and convivial etc, so that may have skewed most…

There are some other contenders for "worst," but this is the most fun story to tell. Restaurant in the Netherlands. We walk in, there's a podium and a sign to please wait for the hostess. We wait for several minutes, finally get impatient and walk around the restaurants. Find two young girls chatting away in the back. They notice us, but continue their conversation for another minute, then ask us what we want. We ask…

Yeah, that would put anyone off.

I've only spent a week in Amsterdam, but I don't recall any negative experiences at all.

When travelling I do tend to eschew touristy areas - other than having to look at specific places / objects, access museums or historic sites, etc - then a quick escape to less tourist-heavy areas.

I'm sure we all do the same in places we live, and therefore know well, but I guess holiday mode puts us in a more sanguine mood.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#77

Post by jolux »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #55
tptacek wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping isn't legally required, so this story doesn't make much sense.

Well it doesn’t make the story less true, it just means the waiter lied to two tourists and used the threat of police to get what he wanted. Further evidence that US tipping culture should be abolished.

You thought that tipping was mandatory?

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#78

Post by jolux »

dwohnitmok wrote: post #59
moltar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s because wages haven’t been catching up with inflation for decades also. Not just food service, pretty much in every sector, maybe with the exception of tech.

Hasn't wage growth been even with inflation? I don't have sources at the moment, but that was my impression. That's still not good (you'd hope for an increase in purchasing power), but not as bad as sliding backwards.

>Hasn't wage growth been even with inflation?

Definitely not: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us...

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#79

Post by dwohnitmok »

jolux wrote: post #78
dwohnitmok wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't wage growth been even with inflation? I don't have sources at the moment, but that was my impression. That's still not good (you'd hope for an increase in purchasing power), but not as bad as sliding backwards.

>Hasn't wage growth been even with inflation? Definitely not: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us...

The headline and article content both say that it's been even, i.e. no real growth, but no backsliding either.

> For most U.S. workers, real wages have barely budged in decades

and

> today’s real average wage (that is, the wage after accounting for inflation) has about the same purchasing power it did 40 years ago.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#80

Post by tony101 »

Smoosh wrote: post #18
tony101 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think separately listing taxes has the benefit of transparency - you know how much the government is taking and can make more informed electoral decisions.

With a single Federal Goods and Services Tax (GST) as in Australia, you know it is 10%. All prices include the GST and are the price you will pay. There are no other sales taxes . Everyone knows what the government's cut is. Everyone knows how much they are actually paying. I can't see why anyone would want a more complicated system. Clarification: Many "essential" goods like simple foods are GST exempt. They will be…

In the US, there are different state, county, and local taxes depending on your location. There is no way to memorize a single number and have it be correct everywhere.
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