Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#611

Post by rrdharan » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

SubuSS wrote: post #568

icebraining wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the part of getting evidence. Seems downright impossible to prove.

I believe it will go along the lines of a sting. Get enough complaints, send enough undercover cops on said bad rides (short routes / racial differences - whatever the drivers are being accused of) and get em.

I was going to say there's no way there's police budget for this kind of enforcement in the US but I would've been wrong:

https://gothamist.com/news/undercover-taxi-fare-investigatio...

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#612

Post by mcguire » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

chairmanwow1 wrote: post #411

coding123 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically they will keep declining until they get the best price. It sounds like the proposed strategy is hogwash.

I will use Uber and Lyft less because of this. I don’t really want to go through the process of negotiating the rate. This is much more tedious.

A market economy is indeed a pain.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#613

Post by kortilla » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

jluxenberg wrote: post #285

bpodgursky wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IRS deprecation is very far above the costs in actual practice. It's a very conservative number.

I think the IRS number might be spot on. Quick math: ($25,000 cost to buy car new - $4,000 residual value at end-of-life ) / 100,000 miles usable lifetime = $0.21/mi depreciation of value $3.22 / gallon * (1 / (17 mi / gal fuel efficiency)) = $0.19/mi for fuel Maintenance: $40 per oil change / 8,000 miles = $0.01 / mi $600 tire change / 60,000 miles = $0.01 / mi $1,186 average yearly repair / 16,000 average miles dri…

Your cost per mile for gas is way off. MPG is way higher for typical Lyft/Uber.

Usable lifetime is also pretty low. A modern car can pretty easily get to 150k miles even driving Uber/Lyft based on the mileage I’ve seen in the cars I’ve ridden in.

Those are your two biggest factors in your calculations and you can cut them both by a good 30%.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#614

Post by gamblor956 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

dcftoapv wrote: post #388

gamblor956 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The train that is currently under construction will connect the airport terminals to a cab stand and car rental station less than a mile from the airport because LA taxi drivers threw a shit fit when they suggested building a train into downtown and Santa Monica. This is false to the point of being deliberate FUD. The LAX people mover is $4 billion because the FAA requires a fuck-ton of care to be taken so that const…

No, it's not. Nothing you wrote contradicted anything I said. The ultimate passenger destinations are less than 1 mile from the airport. They do not include connections to ongoing transportation other than cars, buses, and taxis. It cost $4 billion for something that adds little to no value. LA taxi drivers were actively protesting outside of the airport when the original train was proposed. Stop lying. I agree with…

The ultimate passenger destinations are less than 1 mile from the airport. They do not include connections to ongoing transportation other than cars, buses, and taxis. It cost $4 billion for something that adds little to no value.

Again, that is completely false.

Only the parking lot facility is less than a mile from the airport terminals. The public transportation hub itself is 1.25 miles away from the airport; the same facility will provide access to rail, bus, taxi, and apptaxi (fka rideshare), and the rental car facility at the end of the people mover is roughly 1.5 miles away (across the street from the transportation hub), or roughly 2.25 miles from the other end of the peoplemover in front of tom bradley. https://www.lawa.org/-/media/lawa-web/connecting-lax/lamp-bu...

LA taxi drivers were actively protesting outside of the airport when the original train was proposed. Stop lying.

Yes, they were. And their protests accomplished nothing. Because taxi drivers have no leverage.

It is bizarre that they have any influence whatsoever, but they do, and they have been forcefully exerting it for decades.

No, they have not. They have had literally no influence on public transportation to the airport.

Think about it: they couldn't even stop Uber and Lyft from operating at the airport. And you think they had the leverage to stop public transportation for decades?

(Another example: Uber complained about the new temporary pickup lot for taxis/apptaxis, and LAX made changes the next day to accommodate apptaxis. The taxi drivers made the same complaints...and got no changes at all...Almost a year later, the regular taxis are still complaining about those same issues.)

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#615

Post by kortilla » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

Independent contractors have the same pricing ability as drivers. They can’t force people to pay higher rates any more than a driver, they can just reject jobs that don’t pay enough.

If you’re a plumber and you’re charging $1,000/hr, you’ll certainly be punished for your high prices and for rejecting work after you’ve already accepted (your public reviews on Yelp, etc will take a hit).

“Real independent contractors” have much less power than you think in a competitive market.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#616

Post by mcguire » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

cbmuser wrote: post #575

_jal wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is the way it works, in functional countries. And I absolutely agree, divorcing healthcare from employment is the single best thing the US could do to help fix several different issues. But "We could massively restructure the US economy" is only an answer to "how should rideshare employees be classified" if you want to ensure nothing changes.

> And that is the way it works, in functional countries. In Germany, neither health insurance nor unemployment insurance are paid through taxes. Both are deducted from your salary. It is true, however, that the government subsidizes the public health insurance so that low-income households can afford an insurance. Also, we have similar laws in Germany (and most European) countries like AB5 that prohibit misclassifica…

How is Germany handling ride-sharing?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#617

Post by itsoktocry » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

>Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent.

Why would you bring this up every time you get in an Uber? Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, these people are concerned about complaining to a stranger about their "employer"?

Imagine someone walking into your office and asking you, "hey, do you like this company?"

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#618

Post by gamblor956 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

dcftoapv wrote: post #339

gamblor956 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Los Angeles taxi union prevented (read: bribed and coerced) the state / city government from installing a train from LAX to DTLA because they were rolling in cash. This is false. Pure FUD. The LA taxi union isn't a very powerful union, and was never the primary roadblock to building the Green Line all the way to the airport. The FAA was the reason: they thought the power lines for the rail line would interfere wi…

Every other city in the country has figured out rail transportation. The FAA could have been pacified if there was any political will to find a real solution. Blaming the FAA because they rejected one design is pure bs. GM most definitely ran a campaign through the '50s and '60s designed to increase the use of buses as a replacement for street cars. That's not anywhere close to debatable and LA was not the only city…

The FAA could have been pacified if there was any political will to find a real solution. Blaming the FAA because they rejected one design is pure bs.

It's literally the truth. You can't build a rail to the airport if the ultimate governing body for airports in the country won't let you build the rail to the airport. It took decades to get the FAA to withdraw its opposition, and that didn't happen until a Democratic president took over.

I would love your explanation for BH doing everything in their power to prevent and delay a rail line because they didn't want homeless people to be have easy access to the area.

That's not corruption. That's residents of the city of Beverly Hills being opposed to having a rail line in their city because they don't want homeless people having easy access. (And they're not wrong to be worried about it; the homeless use the E Line daily to shuttle between Santa Monica and downtown LA.) It's not corruption simply because you disagree with them. That's how democracy works.

Notably, the businesses in Beverly Hills were very much in favor of a rail line station terminating in the city. However, businesses aren't voters, so if the rail station had been built over the objections of the voting residents, that would be an example of corruption.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#619

Post by itsoktocry » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

xapata wrote: post #488

lathiat wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem with Taxi drivers as well. Have had friends too close to the airport miss flights because drivers keep rejecting the fare because it goes to drivers near the airport who want a long trip.

I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

>Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

Because these companies are VC and investor subsidized, and apparently breaking labour laws. It isn't a functioning market. If they had to cover the full costs they would face the same issues as taxis.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#620

Post by gamblor956 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #391

gamblor956 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of Uber's alleged model is that Uber is not employing the driver, but rather that it is simply matching up drivers to passengers as a marketplace. If that's the case, then Uber has no right to avoid working with contractors simply because they continually refuse work. That indicates a non-independent agency arrangement between Uber and the driver (aka "employee") and that's what they're claiming they don't…

I disagree. Solely from the perspective of the person running the platform, it makes lots of sense to factor in "likelihood of accepting" into your driver selection algorithm. If I know driver X rejects all rides from a certain area, I'm going to stop showing them rides in that area. That way the user gets their driver faster.

Right, but now they're no longer a marketplace, now the're the one assigning the driver...which makes the driver their agent.

And if the driver is their agent, it matters whether the driver is classified as an employee or independent contractor.

If Uber wants to be a transportation marketplace, they can be, but they actually have to act like one. (And in fact, in CA they've been run a small trial in the Bay Area to make that shift. The trial will supposedly be expanded to all of CA this year.)