Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's • Hacker News Board

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#121

Post by solidasparagus » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #117

pc86 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love (seriously) to hear an example of a union that negotiates pay for its members but individuals successfully get additional raises or bonuses on top of that (not just for doing additional work). Teachers, pilots, public sector employees, all have pay contractually set. If you're a high school teacher and you ask your Principal or Vice Principal for a raise out of band you'll get laughed out of the room.

SAG. The NFL Players Union. Just two examples.

But the NFLPA still hurts top performers. The joint negotiating in the NFL absolutely leads to the highest paid players being paid less than they would without a union. The revenue split, the franchise tag, the minimum salary, the rookie pay scale (arguable), and the veteran benefits all lead to less of the pie being available to the top tier players and less negotiating power. The salary escrow provision is a great example of an out-of-date rule that exists due to CBA negotiations and 100% hurts the top earners (while also providing zero actual benefits - it just existed because it has been there for decades and it's an effort to change anything when doing collective bargaining).

Not that I think any of this is bad since the NFL is brutal to its lowest earners, but it absolutely hurts the highest earners.

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#122

Post by adrianN » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #103

dagurp wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say you lose your negotiating power? The union will ensure that you have the same basic rights (and salary) that everyone else in the field. That doesn't mean you can't ask for a raise or a higher starting salary.

I would love (seriously) to hear an example of a union that negotiates pay for its members but individuals successfully get additional raises or bonuses on top of that (not just for doing additional work). Teachers, pilots, public sector employees, all have pay contractually set. If you're a high school teacher and you ask your Principal or Vice Principal for a raise out of band you'll get laughed out of the room.

This regularly happens at Siemens. IG Metall negotiates contracts and good engineers negotiate bonuses on top of the contract, or increases in pay grade.

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#123

Post by cmrdporcupine » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:33 PM UTC

Semaphor wrote: post #41

supernova87a wrote: post #37

For all the ire on this site about the likes of Google, Apple, etc. screwing over the small company with their 30% app store fee, why isn't there even more outrage over the founders and startups who screw over their even more deserving-of-help employees? You know, the employees who get subjected to unregulated dilution, tyrannical bosses, unreasonable hours and unclear compensation for trading off the prime years of…

Probably because people already tell you not to work at startups unless it is for ideological reasons.

Part of the problem is the lack of good well paying employment options for engineers in small or medium sized companies and companies that are not FAANG. Especially outside of SV. Many of us at FAANG companies would love to leave, but it's getting increasingly hard to find good employers doing interesting work who a) aren't FAANG companies and b) aren't looking to be acquired by a FAANG company.

In the Bay Area there are definitely more options, but outside of there sometimes you have to go to a startup just to find interesting work and a smaller, focused, team.

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#124

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #14

Isn't it pretty common for early employees to be screwed down the line during IPOs and acquisitions? That's been my experience and that of many colleagues, and has been a topic here on HN over the years, driving the idea that working for a startup is usually not in your interests except for particular cases.

[deleted]

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#125

Post by emmelaich » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #78

Waterfall wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions only seem to benefit the union leaders. Union membership have long dropped precipitously for decades for over 50 years at least. Programmer are in no danger of being stuck like McDonald's workers. They're free to work elsewhere and the NDA are as good as toilet paper.

Unions are democratic entities. They do what their members want them to do.

The members are bribed and threatened more easily than in your typical election.

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#126

Post by celticninja » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:41 PM UTC

pontus wrote: post #114

celticninja wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that democracy everywhere though? And it's still better than any of the alternatives by a significant margin.

Many governments have been built in ways to try to mitigate this. For example, in the US we have the electoral college and the Senate (where each state has an equal vote). Not saying I support the electoral college (I don't), but at least there's some thought behind it... Another example is the parliamentary system where each party gets some type of representation in the government and where absolute majorities are r…

not sure those safeguards are working effectively in the US.

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#127

Post by koolba » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:45 PM UTC

spurned_dev wrote: post #46

supernova87a wrote: post #37

For all the ire on this site about the likes of Google, Apple, etc. screwing over the small company with their 30% app store fee, why isn't there even more outrage over the founders and startups who screw over their even more deserving-of-help employees? You know, the employees who get subjected to unregulated dilution, tyrannical bosses, unreasonable hours and unclear compensation for trading off the prime years of…

Oh gonna need a throwaway for this one. I had an exit interview where the founder told me their endgame was to destroy the value of the company to buyback the equity they sold to investors. I've never been more insulted in my life.

We’re talking about Reddit right?

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#128

Post by zaarn » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

adriancr wrote: post #92

zaarn wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your overall leverage is increased through the union so you are more likely to get a fair compensation than before.

not if the union negotiates upper limits on compensation. Or it negotiates yearly raise brackets. You can negotiate better individually if you are good and there arent union enforced guidelines, if you're not, the union deal would work out better.

Then your union is bad and you should work to improve it.

No wonder if US unions always end up so bad if apparently nobody is willing to fix things and let pancilpushers do it.

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#129

Post by sjg007 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:50 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #127

spurned_dev wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh gonna need a throwaway for this one. I had an exit interview where the founder told me their endgame was to destroy the value of the company to buyback the equity they sold to investors. I've never been more insulted in my life.

We’re talking about Reddit right?

Hmm, seems strange.. seems easier to start another one. I mean we have a wide range of forum sites.

Re: Former Zoox employees sue, alleging rival offer was better than Amazon's

#130

Post by celticninja » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 1:54 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #107

celticninja wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that democracy everywhere though? And it's still better than any of the alternatives by a significant margin.

> Isn't that democracy everywhere though? And it's still better than any of the alternatives by a significant margin. Yes it is. Which is fine for something like a country where I don't have any hope of negotiating with the government individually, and where I don't have any choice in which country I'm part of. But I'm not sure it's what I want for my job , where I can already negotiate directly with my employer, and…

I dont think thats the case at all. I am not sure what qualifies as a minority, but the union where I work has been instrumental in ensuring that disabled employees have access to tools they need to do their job and the support they need. They help when restructuring brings redundancies, they negotiate retraining packages for people etc.

You have fallen into the Us v Them trap that benefits employers. Your employer does not see you as significantly different to any other employee, even if you think you are. You have more in common with the other employees than you do with mid and senior level management.

Consider it this way, if you died on the way into work tomorrow, your colleagues would mourn and miss you, your employer would be typing up the job post whilst wondering if they could get someone cheaper this time.

I genuinely think you have some serious misunderstandings about what a union can and does do for its members. I don't know of one union that would prevent you from negotiating your own contract or terms and conditions. What you will find is that the bare minimum of acceptable terms has already been agreed with the union so you are starting negotiations 1-step up from where you would be without them. What this means for you is that you aren't using some of your powers of persuasion to ensure you have e.g. 14 days leave per year, you can now use that leeway to negotiate dental or medical, or whatever else you value.

I would just point out that employee unions are pretty strong in Europe, not over powered, but we have maternity pay, sick leave and generous annual leave allowances. In the US you dont like unions, have woefully inadequate annual leave, sick pay, maternity pay etc.

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”

In the same way it seems like US employees don't see themselves as employees but as business owners/managers who haven't quite achieved their position as yet and a union would be detrimental to them when they are in that role even if it would benefit them right now.