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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#531

Post by akvadrako »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

Because it's inconsistent. If you allow drivers to work without protections you should allow everyone to work without protections.

There are some issues though; for one the state ends up subsidising workers who don't have good unemployment and health insurance.

The best solution would be UBI - give people enough money to live on while removing worker protections like minimum wage and mandatory insurances.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#532

Post by Nydhal »

sudosysgen wrote: post #408
xur17 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in most cases, you aren't buying a car just to drive for Uber (more than half drive between 1 and 15 hours a week [0]), you're doing it on the side. Your per mile costs for driving for Uber are the marginal costs (costs of additional insurance, fuel, marginal wear and tear, etc). Also, if you're driving for Uber in a new car that gets 17 mi / gal fuel efficiency, you're not making wise moves. There's a reason a l…

Well, no, because if you are an Uber driver the vast majority of the depreciation in the value of your car comes from driving Uber. Cars depreciate in large part due to mileage. Finally, "marginal wear and tear" is a completely absurd concept. The cost of wear and tear on maintenance of a car has a positive derivative and thus has no margin, the more wear and tear the more expensive wear and tear gets. In other words…

In the real world, you can't spend an infinite amount of money on a car. There is a limit. The margin will come up at some point unless the driver is completely irrational.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#533

Post by ksec »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

But you also have people like DHH claiming otherwise.

To those of us not living in US, America just feels like a nation that constantly shout at each other, and now it is amplify by its a dominant media platform; Twitter. Considering lots of news media quote, find new information and use Twitter.

And no one wants to compromise.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#534

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

Cookingboy wrote: post #494
URSpider94 wrote: post #491

We have long ago decided that we don’t let people give away certain rights, even if they do it freely, even if they want to. I can’t work for a business for free, or for below minimum wage, even if I call myself an “unpaid intern”. I can’t work for a business as a child (below working age). I can’t ask a business not to withhold income tax from my paycheck, or to not pay their half of the social security tax, or with…

>other than when the drivers choose to work. You can't just hand waive away a fundamental difference like that. From my conversation with some Lyft/Uber drivers they really treasure that aspect and they would rather quit if they are forced to be regular employees with dictated working hours.

That rigid schedule talking point sounds like it's made to scare.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#535

Post by gwd »

xapata wrote: post #488
lathiat wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem with Taxi drivers as well. Have had friends too close to the airport miss flights because drivers keep rejecting the fare because it goes to drivers near the airport who want a long trip.

I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

But that's partly because, in all likelihood, the taxi driver also couldn't set their own rates. If that taxi driver could have asked $20 instead of the $3.75 legally mandated by the meter, would you have paid it?

It seems like allowing a proper market, where both riders and drivers could bid on rides, would solve both this problem and the SuperShuttle problem.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#536

Post by neumann »

kyle_martin1 wrote: post #426
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a…

I remember seeing off a rental travel van a few miles from LAX. They were a tiny business and had no shuttle service. Next door was a EUROPCAR rental and outside it a bunch of taxis and Ubers. They ALL refused to take me, and EUROPCAR security didn't want me catching their shuttle bus because I want a customer. I had to conspicuously beg them to let me on the bus in front of customers in the service area to not miss my flight.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#537

Post by vinay427 »

username90 wrote: post #448
vinay427 wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone generally ignorant of unions, I believe the teeth of unions lie in the collective bargaining that comes from making them mandatory. With right-to-work laws in some states (and other countries) this is often not possible, so workers can choose to look out for their immediate interests which undermines the union's power that comes from representing most or all employees. In other words, unions gener…

> I believe the teeth of unions lie in the collective bargaining that comes from making them mandatory I don't believe that at all, mandatory unions are illegal in Europe yet unions are stronger here. It wouldn't surprise me if making them mandatory actually makes them weaker since workers are so afraid of creating unions that could potentially harm them, while I can always ignore an optional union so they aren't a p…

I didn't want to make a Europe-wide comparison as the roles of unions and the rates of union membership vary widely across the continent, including several places with lower membership than the US.

I don't think requiring unions is the only way to do it, but the countries that have a high rate of unionization seem to have other incentives in place, such as Sweden and Denmark where unemployment insurance is generally provided through unions in contrast with Norway or France, where this is not the case. The latter countries perhaps consequently have much lower rates of membership, closer to that of the US.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/17/15290674/u...

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#538

Post by ArkVark »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

If politicians really want to improve things for the working class: then lower sales taxes, extend land taxes (remove loopholes), support and encourage higher-density housing (including rooming houses), ban sugar, stop legal and illegal immigration from low and moderate-HDI countries, legalise safe drugs, and decriminalise all other drugs.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#539

Post by CPLX »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

Imagine for arguments sake you were deriving your income from a company that’s known to be highly aggressive in suppressing threats to their business model.

Imagine that you held an opinion that was counter to a major legal and public option battle that company was engaged in.

In the situation, what would you say if someone approached you while you were on the job and started asking for your opinion on this topic?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#540

Post by icebraining »

ganafagol wrote: post #509
perryizgr8 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work. We have one age old solution for this problem. It's called savings.

Hard to do for people living paycheck to paycheck. Then they should refuse the job you say? Yeah right then they don't even have that little paycheck anymore. There is a power imbalance here, and that's the root issue. The employee and the employer are not on the same level in terms of negotiating power. Hard for tech people like the HN crowd to realize, but in most areas outside overpaid overdemanded software engine…

That makes sense when the fat cats are making huge profits and paying a pittance to their workers. But Uber is losing billions every year. Where is the money going to come from?
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