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Can't you just right click?

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Re: Can't you just right click?

#721

Post by okamiueru »

ubermonkey wrote: post #590
okamiueru wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to enlighten? I've been using all three, and I'd rate Linux to be miles ahead of MacOs, which is a few steps ahead of Windows. For what an OS should do, Linux does it far better, and Windows does it terribly with its ancient nt kernel. Then it comes down to usability for end user, gnome gets out of the way, and allows pretty good customization. MacOs is pretty mediocre and restrictive. And Windows is again prett…

>If you don't buy a mac for the software availability, or for some other restriction, you are literally making a terrible purchase. I laughed. A lot. The whole thread is full of people noting the level of hardware and software polish on offer from Apple but unavailable elsewhere, and the seamlessness of working in a MacOS + iOS + WatchOS world and how nice that is, and your takeaway is that we're all dumbasses making…

You laughed a lot at that? Well, you do you. Also, there is no need to call yourself dumbass. It's OK to value things in different ways. Apparently, you value the walled garden and the benefits therein. That is OK. I personally do not see that value, and I would call it a terrible purchase. For me, computing power and flexibility is more important. It's also not like build quantity is exclusive to Apple. As a final takeaway, calling strangers 'boyo', that does make you look like a dumbass.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#722

Post by read_if_gay_ »

stickfigure wrote: post #704
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP is basically arguing it's impossible to run arbitrary software which is BS. It's not as simple as it could be, but Apple didn't prohibit it, they just hid it behind a few menus. And if you are too incompetent to click through these then you probably shouldn't be running arbitrary software. That's why the comic does not really apply here IMO.

Anything that would send me to stackoverflow (or any other stackexchange site) should be considered effectively impossible for normal users.

Impossible for normal users is not generally impossible though. You have to specify that. Or else a lot of things would be impossible.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#723

Post by pjmlp »

quanticle wrote: post #700
pjmlp wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Community has several restrictions for any business with more than 5 developers or more than a specific profit limit.

Right, which is why I was careful to state that Community was for individuals , and Professional was for multi-developer organizations. This is in contrast with Apple, which requires you to pay $99 regardless of whether you're an individual or a corporate entity.

Yeah, but lets not forget that community also is relatively recent, having replaced the Express editions, which were worthless beyond learning purposes, as per license.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#724

Post by simonh »

_qulr wrote: post #664
simonh wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you're using someone else's products (dev tools, compilers, OS libraries) you buy and license from them under certain commercial terms. If you don't like the terms, don't buy them. And to be crystal clear, that's the approach I am personally going to take. I carved off a TB partition and installed Windows 10 and WSL 2 on my new iMac and it runs like a dream. I still need MacOS, and I'll be installing Virtualbox…

> Well, you're using someone else's products (dev tools, compilers, OS libraries) you buy and license from them under certain commercial terms. If you don't like the terms, don't buy them. This doesn't tell the whole story, because terms change. Even open source licenses change. Apple added Gatekeeper to Mac OS X in 2012. Before then, it was a pretty open platform. And other companies such as Microsoft and Google hav…

They can't change the terms on a product they have already sold to you, but new versions of the OS and dev tools are new products with new features. If you want the new features, you can choose to accept the terms, but you don't have to.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#725

Post by pjmlp »

simion314 wrote: post #709
pjmlp wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before Java was a thing, that utility would have been written in Turbo Pascal, Quick Basic, Visual Basic, C, C++ compiler, none of them available for free. At minimum one would need the Shareware or PD disks tax to get hold of some similar compiler.

Hobbiest either used open source or some freeware compilers. The reason I mentioned Java and C# is that is easy to use for simple tools and you can support all OS, around 15 years ago I bought a book about games and c++ it had a CD with a free/gratis version of a c++ compiler (probably from Microsoft) I made some small games and shared them with my friends (I did not had to pay Microsoft a tax or ask approval)

There was hardly any open source on Amiga, Atari, MS-DOS and Windows 3.x worthy of use.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#726

Post by pjmlp »

smegger001 wrote: post #706
pjmlp wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before Java was a thing, that utility would have been written in Turbo Pascal, Quick Basic, Visual Basic, C, C++ compiler, none of them available for free. At minimum one would need the Shareware or PD disks tax to get hold of some similar compiler.

or use a free (libre or gratis) compiler. GNU Compiler Collection was released over three decades ago, or the BSD licensed Portable C Compiler that was initially released over forty years ago, as for Basic many operating systems had a basic interpreter or compiler built in.

When it became something usable on PCs we are already talking about past Windows 98.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#727

Post by pjmlp »

smegger001 wrote: post #707
pjmlp wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because traditionally compilers for a specific OS were extra pay. Ironically that you mentioned GCC, it only came to be, because Sun made their development tools an additional payment to the base Solaris price.

You do realize the first thing most admins did after installing Solaris workstations was to install the free BSD utils?

No, because I did UNIX administration during late 90's and that wasn't a thing.

DG/UX, Aix, HP-UX, Tru64, Solaris, and some Linux boxes ironically not considered serious enough for production deployments.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#728

Post by Tainnor »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #668
zaarn wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty more OSS software that has polished and usable UI design. Possibly software you'd not think of as OSS to begin with. Being so dismissive of the user's wants is just Apple fanboyism.

That OSS usually has poor usability is like the most common criticism ever. And could you explain how specifically am I dismissing users' wants? I'm just saying an extra 5 clicks is not that big of a barrier, when people in this thread are throwing phrases like "incredibly painful" around.

You're confusing usability with visual polish.

I will agree that many OSS desktop applications don't have the most modern UI and are not as visually appealing as some paid-for apps. But in terms of usability, "beautiful" apps can be just as if not more frustrating than dated-looking ones.

There's especially often a lazy route to perceived usability that consists in just not providing many features. Of course, it's easy to create an easy to use application if it doesn't do all that much (like $20 mail clients that can't even do GPG - no thanks, I'll switch back to ugly, but perfectly usable Thunderbird).

Re: Can't you just right click?

#729

Post by _qulr »

simonh wrote: post #724
_qulr wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, you're using someone else's products (dev tools, compilers, OS libraries) you buy and license from them under certain commercial terms. If you don't like the terms, don't buy them. This doesn't tell the whole story, because terms change. Even open source licenses change. Apple added Gatekeeper to Mac OS X in 2012. Before then, it was a pretty open platform. And other companies such as Microsoft and Google hav…

They can't change the terms on a product they have already sold to you, but new versions of the OS and dev tools are new products with new features. If you want the new features, you can choose to accept the terms, but you don't have to.

On the user side, there are security updates. Yes, you can refuse to install OS updates that patch vulnerabilities, but obviously that's a big problem for the user. And eventually the vendor stops providing security updates altogether for the hardware.

On the developer side, you can't really refuse to use the new versions, because they are required to support your software for the latest OS versions, which is where your customers will be. So if you don't, you lose your customers and go out of business, which is not much of a choice.

It's untrue that updates consist of nothing but new features.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#730

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

rglullis wrote: post #708
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not sure I follow. You mentioned somewhere else that Lubuntu was the one that gave you the least problems and that you are now using windows. Coincidentally, Lubuntu is the flavor that looks like the most with older versions of Windows. > To me it looks like your assumption is that anything that does not look like Windows 2000/XP is "worse" That's a very condescending conclusion to draw. I found LXDE less comp…

I am not going to be debating what exact problems you had, but I must be extremely lucky if all those years I never had any kind of showstopper critical issue that made me think "Ok, I can't deal with this and I have to go back to a proprietary desktop". It's been at least since 2012 that I had installed Linux and couldn't connect a printer or scanner. Meanwhile my wife's laptop on windows asked to reinstall drivers…

> I am not going to be debating what exact problems you had, but I must be extremely lucky if all those years I never had any kind of showstopper critical issue that made me think "Ok, I can't deal with this and I have to go back to a proprietary desktop".

Ugh. Thing is, it isn't about luck. It's about use cases and yours must just match how Linux works better. I'm going to take a wild guess that most of what you use a computer for is browsing the internet and either web or unix development.

> So forgive me for sounding condescending, but you went with probably the most obscure and least popular Ubuntu flavor - the one that has probably almost to no funding from Canonical and maybe a handful of developers interested on it. What were you expecting, exactly? If Ubuntu was bad for you, maybe try Fedora? If you wanted a more knowledgeable community, maybe try Arch?

If you had been paying attention instead of being a typically dismissive Linux evangelist, you'd have noted that the vast majority of my problems had to do with the Ubuntu part of Lubuntu. You know, the part that's common to all Ubuntu derivatives? Not to mention, as I said, I've tried many distros, popular distros, unpopular distros, wildly divergent distros, etc, they all have pretty much the same problems because the problems are inherent to how Linux userspace is constructed!

But whatever, you are just like the rest of the Linux Destkop community. You have made using Linux a part of your identity and cannot stand criticism, so you just become insulting, condescending, and generally dismissive of any issues anyone is experiencing.

> Why instead of sticking with your preconceptions of how things should work, you ask what are the others doing that let them be productive on a FOSS Desktop?

Because they are doing different things than I do! And when you want to do something different than what the Linux Desktop community does, their only advice is to not want to do that.

> We must have very different thresholds for defining "remotely viable".

Clearly. Which is pretty much exactly my point: Linux works for you because it fits your needs well, and it doesn't work for a lot of others, like myself, because it doesn't fit those needs well. If you're going to run around telling everyone how great your desktop is and that they should all use it, but refuse to recognize where it falls short, then you shouldn't be surprised when people don't want anything to do with your community.

Frankly, you are some of the most frustrating assholes I've ever had to deal with in computing.

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