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Open Problems in Robotics

scottlocklin.wordpress.com

221–230 of 232 posts

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#221
post #195

What really surprises me is Apple is now 2 trillion dollars with another gajillion sitting in cash. Why are they being an optimization company and not really pushing the edge on robotics and automation? I was excited about Apple car but it seems that project is ded. Why not invest that money in moonshot ideas ? It seems Elon musk is the crazy one with Tesla, Solar City and SpaceX. It blows my mind how their massive r…

As difficult as it is, control for launching and landing a rocket is vastly easier computationally than even apparently simple robotics problems.

Robotics is simply hard, from algorithmic, computational, and engineering perspectives. Only some parts of it can be solved by throwing money and raw compute power at it. Even in areas where progress has been made, you generally need experts to decompose the problem at hand into something that can be tackled with existing techniques,and those experts are expensive and in relative demand.

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious to hear more. What caused you to lose and then regain depth perception? Were you able to see with both eyes or did you lose vision in one eye temporarily?

Mix of minor strokes and high intercraniel pressure. My vision would switch from one eye to the other roughly every 30 seconds. Mostly seamlessly. Took ages to figure this out. Had some minor left brain issues. So writing would go gibberish every 30 seconds. Keeping a patch on right eye meant my vision went black every 30 seconds but my writing was fine when I could see. Left eye being patched meant writing mostly gi…

Whoa, I’m really sorry to hear that. Your story is fascinating and reminiscent of Michael Gazzaniga and others’ work with split brain patients.

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#223
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If prism glasses helped regain depth perception, then probably something went wrong with eye motor function, causing diplopia (double image due to misalignment of eye). Could be trauma to the eye socket? Vision loss in one eye i think can be ruled out.

Sixth cranial nerve issue. I can keep eyes aligned, but is extremely difficult and painful if cranial pressure is high. Reducing pressure resolves the issue. Both eyes are very healthy. At worse it’s +24 diapors, -1 power. When pressure is good it’s 0-2 diapors +3power. For awhile it was -6 diapors. At this point I have glasses for much of the range. Temple pain tells me when it’s time to switch glasses. Avoiding caf…

There is either a book or a great Joe Rogan podcast in your story. Thank you very much for sharing.

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another open problem: taking machines apart for recycling.

This is a problem I've been passively thinking about and would LOVE to tackle full time. Any VCs out there have piles of cash they want throw my way?

> Any VCs out there have piles of cash they want throw my way?

I think maybe you need to refine your slide deck a little

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#225
post #198
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think the error bounds are for a human? I know it sounds like a flippant question, but for certain applications, if we can get a model that's better than human, then it doesn't need to be perfect. And they way we currently do this in all sorts of ways is to pair a human with a computer so that they each do what they're best at. It doesn't have to be about full automation.

This is another one of that "extreme tail risk" scenarios, like climate change and GMOs, that people have wildly different and contradictory reactions to. Sure, the "legacy" intelligence / climate / food could also have extreme tail risks, it's just that it's been tested for 100s of millenia... whereas new technology might be better in the average case or even 99th percentile, but the 1% (or 0.0001%) is unknown and p…

> "extreme tail risk" scenarios, like climate change

Climate change isn't a "tail risk". It is a hard wall our civilization is approaching fast. If we do not solve it, it will undo the conditions we depend on to live.

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#226
post #70

>Multiaxis singularities -this one blew my mind. Imagine you have a robot arm bolted to the ground. You want to teach the stupid thing to paint a car or something. There are actual singularities possible in the equations of motion; and it is more or less an underconstrained problem. I guess there are workarounds for this at this point, but they all have different tradeoffs. It’s as open a problem as motion planning o…

The workarounds are designed to solve particular cases. A robot arm in manufacturing is stationary, has a controlled environment, and often a fixed task (or at least task type). The task is know in advance, and humans are involved in developing the solution for each particular task. In an open environment one cannot rely on those things. When the task is not known up-front. Or the new tasks come too quickly for a hum…

And that's just equivalent to a human lifting a chair without hurting himself.

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do have experience in robotics. There exists robust solutions to depth estimation and position estimation that are deployed in the real world, in difficult applications where they have been generalized to work with any object you can draw a box around. There is a difference between a problem that is solved in theory and a problem that is solved enough so that you can buy polished products that implement a solution…

Structure from focus is an established technique that can produce quite good results, but it's not quite as easy as the existence of good autofocus in cameras would suggest. SfF techniques often operate the the inverse of an autofocus system - rather than focus on a specific point to figure out depth at that point, you run through a full focus cycle and then for each area of the image, you find the focus setting that…

A lot of these problems have been fixed by recent advancements. For example, splitting a few thousand pixels into two and using that as a phase detection sensor provides universal coverage.

As far as large lenses and sensors not working well on sensors, I think you'd be surprised just how well large lenses designed for the sensors they belong on can work. Indeed, by far the reason why photography lenses are huge is because of lens IS and zoom. Making small, light, fast normal lenses with larger stabilized sensors works perfectly fine and can be made very light.

After all, humans have two huge sensors (slightly bigger than full-frame) with f/3 lenses, and it works perfectly fine.

Now, to what I think is missing from the state of the art in robotics:

>Phase-detection autofocus is so fast in part because it's only using a sparse set of autofocus points, rather than the full sensor resolution.

This was true a decade ago, but now if you look at Canon sensors or some Sony sensors not subject to the patent, every single pixel is a phase detection point. Indeed, the pixels are cut in 2 or 4 photodiodes each only receiving light from one half or one quarter of the aperture.

This means that every single pixel can detect phase information, all 45 million of them.

Herein lies the major difference between Structure from Focus and phase detection : in a phase detection system, it is not needed at all to run a focus cycle. Instead, two waveforms are generated, one corresponding to one section of the aperture and one corresponding to another section of the aperture.

The two waveforms "match" when the incident rays correspond to the same point, that is to say, when focus is achieved. However, it really isn't necessary to actually achieve focus - focus simply offsets the phase of the two waveforms.

Therefore, by simply computing the phase difference of the two waveforms, one can instantly know, given knowledge of the lens characteristics, the distance of the subject, without having to achieve a focus cycle (!)

Indeed, phase detection actually works very similarly to parallax, in that in actuality you can use it to construct two split, offset images.

Of course, you can also use two stereo cameras, but then you have the issue of having to motorize the cameras to achieve convergence, without which stereo overlap is minimimal, wherehas per-pixel phase detection provides complete overlap and is much more precise.

If you want to see this in practice, the RAW files of a Canon EOS R5 actually encode distance information for every single pixel.

Also,

>the depth value is only as accurate as the depth of field

Yes. The depth value is precise, in a modern camera, to about one 5000th of the diameter of the aperture, which is, for a 50mm f1.8 normal lens, able to compute depth accurately for any subject within 50-60 meters. Which is better than LiDAR of the the same size, easily. And you can do so for a small fraction of the cost by simply upgrading hardware that is already necessary.

It is true that modern cameras actually do move the focus and re-calculate depth, which might give the impression that if you wanted to calculate depth you would actually need to move focus. But in reality, this is done in order to correct for the small misalignment in different lenses, as well as for the fact autofocus motors do not have accurate encoders and will very frequently miss steps. But a modern camera already knows how much the image plane needs to actually shift before even engaging the autofocus motor at all.

In essence, SfF in the State of the Art is an inversion of the state of autofocus 20 years ago, using contrast detection as the autofocus method. However, modern autofocus has progressed so much in this time-frame that it has solved almost all of the issues of SfF.

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Structure from focus is an established technique that can produce quite good results, but it's not quite as easy as the existence of good autofocus in cameras would suggest. SfF techniques often operate the the inverse of an autofocus system - rather than focus on a specific point to figure out depth at that point, you run through a full focus cycle and then for each area of the image, you find the focus setting that…

A lot of these problems have been fixed by recent advancements. For example, splitting a few thousand pixels into two and using that as a phase detection sensor provides universal coverage. As far as large lenses and sensors not working well on sensors, I think you'd be surprised just how well large lenses designed for the sensors they belong on can work. Indeed, by far the reason why photography lenses are huge is b…

As far as large lenses and sensors not working well on sensors, I think you'd be surprised just how well large lenses designed for the sensors they belong on can work. Indeed, by far the reason why photography lenses are huge is because of lens IS and zoom. Making small, light, fast normal lenses with larger stabilized sensors works perfectly fine and can be made very light.

The current cameras and lenses on the market work very well, that's not the problem. The problem is that even "small" cameras and lenses are huge in comparison to what can be integrated into a robot. I use a couple M4/3 cinema/studio cameras for vision projects because they're the smallest affordable cameras with controllable interchangeable lenses, and even with their "small" size they are at the upper limit of anything I could hope to fit in a practical robot.

After all, humans have two huge sensors (slightly bigger than full-frame) with f/3 lenses, and it works perfectly fine.

The human eye is vastly more complex and capable than a fixed plane imager and capable of much more complex focus behavior than any existing lenses are. Camera-eye comparisons are appealing, but the focus behavior of them is really very different.

However, modern autofocus has progressed so much in this time-frame that it has solved almost all of the issues of SfF

Canon has done a very nice job with their autofocus, but I will believe they have solved depth perception with phase detection when they apply it to their industrial cameras. Canon makes very nice RV-series parts recognition cameras that do a very good job with challenging materials, but they use structured light. In theory, phase-detection SfF would be perfect for these cameras but they haven't done it.

It is true that modern cameras actually do move the focus and re-calculate depth, which might give the impression that if you wanted to calculate depth you would actually need to move focus. But in reality, this is done in order to correct for the small misalignment in different lenses, as well as for the fact autofocus motors do not have accurate encoders and will very frequently miss steps. But a modern camera already knows how much the image plane needs to actually shift before even engaging the autofocus motor at all.

The minor problem is that you generally want depth plus RGB, which is obviously solved by adding a second camera but then you face basically the same size and overlap issues that stereo cameras bring. Not entirely a free lunch.

The other problem here is political, namely that SfF via phase-detection is (at least for now) entirely in the hands of Canon and Sony, two companies (Sony in particular) with track records related to robotics and machine vision users that can best be described as ranging from "somewhat uninterested" to "useless" to "self-sabotaging". Unless one of them commits to making an actual product and ships it, we will remain in a world where phase-detection SfF is technically possible but entirely out of reach.

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of these problems have been fixed by recent advancements. For example, splitting a few thousand pixels into two and using that as a phase detection sensor provides universal coverage. As far as large lenses and sensors not working well on sensors, I think you'd be surprised just how well large lenses designed for the sensors they belong on can work. Indeed, by far the reason why photography lenses are huge is b…

As far as large lenses and sensors not working well on sensors, I think you'd be surprised just how well large lenses designed for the sensors they belong on can work. Indeed, by far the reason why photography lenses are huge is because of lens IS and zoom. Making small, light, fast normal lenses with larger stabilized sensors works perfectly fine and can be made very light. The current cameras and lenses on the mark…

>The current cameras and lenses on the market work very well, that's not the problem. The problem is that even "small" cameras and lenses are huge in comparison to what can be integrated into a robot. I use a couple M4/3 cinema/studio cameras for vision projects because they're the smallest affordable cameras with controllable interchangeable lenses, and even with their "small" size they are at the upper limit of anything I could hope to fit in a practical robot.

But this is largely because modern lenses are seriously bloated, with IS for older cameras that have non-stabilized sensors, bloated focusing mechanisms to make floating elements work, bloated zooming mechanisms that make everything so much worse, and so on.

If we want to design a lens for robotics, we really don't need much more than a double-gauss normal lens with a unitary focusing mechanism.

One of the lenses I use when I need to kludge something in a project is exactly that, a 1970s Minolta 55 f/1.7 lens for a full-frame image circle. Despite having a large 32mm aperture, it has a diameter of 56mm and a length of 44mm. I don't know if that's too large for your robotics applications, but it isn't very big and it's much smaller than the LiDAR sensors I've worked with. You could likely make this even smaller with modern techniques. It would also cost about 40$ to build.

>The human eye is vastly more complex and capable than a fixed plane imager and capable of much more complex focus behavior than any existing lenses are. Camera-eye comparisons are appealing, but the focus behavior of them is really very different.

My point was moreso that in pure optical sizes, the human eye is bigger and takes up more volume than the optical system I'm proposing. But as far as focusing behaviours, if you were to mathematically model how the human eye gets depth information to drive the focus cycle its quite similar to a phase detection system, with the phase information being extracted through the parallax.

>Canon has done a very nice job with their autofocus, but I will believe they have solved depth perception with phase detection when they apply it to their industrial cameras. Canon makes very nice RV-series parts recognition cameras that do a very good job with challenging materials, but they use structured light. In theory, phase-detection SfF would be perfect for these cameras but they haven't done it.

I think this can be explained quite simply. In a fully controlled environment, using structured light but cheap lenses and small sensors is much more cost-effective. Why would they use expensive APS-C+ sized sensors, that they don't seem to be all that good at making, when you can get away with very cheap parts?

>The minor problem is that you generally want depth plus RGB, which is obviously solved by adding a second camera but then you face basically the same size and overlap issues that stereo cameras bring. Not entirely a free lunch.

But this is precisely the point of OSPDAF or split-pixel phase detection. You get both depth and RGB at the same time, because the RGB sensor doubles as a phase detection sensor. It's not like old cameras where you had to use a mirror that sent light to the dedicated phase detection sensor.

As for political problems, I agree. Canon won't ever sell you their DPAF sensors. Sony, even though they are really bad at robotics, should in theory be willing to sell anyone their sensors, and it should be possible to make a prototype. Their tech in this would be limited relatively to Canon, though.

But, to the point, a solution to a problem that's proprietary is still a solution to the problem.

Re: Open Problems in Robotics

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as large lenses and sensors not working well on sensors, I think you'd be surprised just how well large lenses designed for the sensors they belong on can work. Indeed, by far the reason why photography lenses are huge is because of lens IS and zoom. Making small, light, fast normal lenses with larger stabilized sensors works perfectly fine and can be made very light. The current cameras and lenses on the mark…

> The current cameras and lenses on the market work very well, that's not the problem. The problem is that even "small" cameras and lenses are huge in comparison to what can be integrated into a robot. I use a couple M4/3 cinema/studio cameras for vision projects because they're the smallest affordable cameras with controllable interchangeable lenses, and even with their "small" size they are at the upper limit of an…

There are a number of quite good modern primes that are tiny with big apertures, especially for smaller sensor sizes. Even then, though, lens plus camera is almost always much bigger than the current crop of depth cameras (K4A, Realsense D400, L500, Lucid Helios). Even those cameras is still too big for some applications, that's where PMD's tiny little cameras have a niche.

There's always going to be some room for larger, better sensors, but a lot of applications are in need of more sensors to get better coverage, and size is definitely one of the tightest limitation on where they can be applied.

I think this can be explained quite simply. In a fully controlled environment, using structured light but cheap lenses and small sensors is much more cost-effective. Why would they use expensive APS-C+ sized sensors, that they don't seem to be all that good at making, when you can get away with very cheap parts?

I mean sure, greed is a plenty good explanation of Canon's behavior. The RV-series are pretty big and plenty expensive, so I don't think using better optics would be an issue. Indeed, if single-frame PDAF depth worked out, it would considerably speed up the parts recognition cycle time, which is actually somewhat slow due to the multiple patterns required by the structured light system. The projector and structured light processing work isn't free, either, so it seems like depth they got for free would be better in every way.

Dual Pixel AF II, at least in marketing speak for OSPDAF, has been around for longer than the RV-series, so I can't help but have doubts about the actual practical applicability of PDAF SfF.

But this is precisely the point of OSPDAF or split-pixel phase detection. You get both depth and RGB at the same time, because the RGB sensor doubles as a phase detection sensor.

Yes, that's true, but the problem of making a good RGBD camera is that you generally want a deeper depth of field in RGB so as much of the image is in focus as possible, while maximizing PDAF SfF depth quality requires as shallow a depth of field as possible. It's not impossible to solve this, but the fundamental optical features you want out of the depth part are the opposite of the features you need from the RGB part. You could address this by changing aperture between each depth/RGB capture, although you'd definitely have to use an electromagnetic aperture to avoid lifetime issues. You'd still end up with a slower framerate taking successive depth/RGB frames, but that's doable for many applications.

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