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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#481

Post by mycall »

parineum wrote: post #480
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

I rarely use ridesharing apps but I always ask about this kind of thing and I have the same takeaway as you. The drivers seem to like the situation they are in. I could really care less about the "technically..." type of arguments. The drivers don't think they are being exploited, they like the job and the freedom it gives them. Any law that puts an end to that is _bad_ for those people. Just because these laws were…

> The drivers seem to like the situation they are in.

Yet when you explain to them what they are missing, what employees get, they also like that.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#482

Post by malandrew »

skybrian wrote: post #440
malandrew wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passing laws to eliminate crappy jobs doesn't magically make non-crappy jobs come into existence. Unsure where UBI comes into the picture either since UBI also does not make non-crappy jobs magically come into existence.

It doesn't solve anything, but having an income stream that's not connected with your job should help make crappy jobs livable, and also increase bargaining power for workers, due to having better alternatives. Also, increased spending does tend to result in more jobs, at least in normal times.

Can you provide a specific fairly objective definition of what a "crappy" job is?

Is it just a job you don't like doing?

How does adding UBI address bargaining power beyond a temporary fix? Eventually prices will adjust to take into account the buying power of UBI. UBI will become the new baseline and people on UBI will lose the benefits of that buying power. Not denying that UBI won't provide a temporary fix, but there is nothing about UBI prevents the market from adjusting to take into account UBI.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#483

Post by Dylan16807 »

macinjosh wrote: post #447
Dylan16807 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice to not have important types of insurance hurts the chooser and it hurts everyone else. There are many situations where it's best if the societal bargain restricts the options available.

who gets to decide what's best?

Is that a real question? The government, of course. Hopefully an elected one, but no laws of physics force fair representation to happen.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#484

Post by URSpider94 »

EpicEng wrote: post #424
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

>Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform... As a contractor I can set my rate, but the company can also simply not hire me. As a contractor I can act as I wish, but the company can terminate my contract. As a contractor, I pay for my unemployment insurance if I want it. So... What's the practical difference? How is this any different than someone who decides to make a livin…

You’re making an error in your analogy.

When I sell you my Smurfs collection on EBay, I set the terms of sale and you bid. You and I come to agreement on the terms of the transaction, within some limits that EBay, as the platform, sets.

When I sell a ride to you on Uber, Uber sets the price, tells me where to pick you up, and even dictates the route I should take. I don’t even get to see where I’m taking you until after I accept the ride.

On EBay, you and I are negotiating with each other. On Uber, the driver has no say in what the offer to the passenger is.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#485

Post by noncoml »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

What they are telling you is that they don’t want anyone to set their working hours for them. That’s all

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#486

Post by URSpider94 »

OliverGilan wrote: post #385
paxys wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an independent contractor Actually you were an employee, just misclassified. If you took them to court you would likely win. Being able to set your own hours, working part time, working for other employers, quitting at any time - these are all possible in an employee relationship.

Under current laws you are correct but I think he is trying to highlight the point that maybe the laws shouldn't have this dichotomy and we should recognize there are instances where not being a full employee yet not filling the exact current definition of a contractor should exist

The reason these laws exist is because corporations will use them to reclassify the maximum number of employees possible as contractors, so they can avoid a whole host of legal constraints around employment.

In general, flexibility in classification of workers almost always plays out poorly for the majority of workers.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#487

Post by mikeg8 »

mycall wrote: post #481
parineum wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely use ridesharing apps but I always ask about this kind of thing and I have the same takeaway as you. The drivers seem to like the situation they are in. I could really care less about the "technically..." type of arguments. The drivers don't think they are being exploited, they like the job and the freedom it gives them. Any law that puts an end to that is _bad_ for those people. Just because these laws were…

> The drivers seem to like the situation they are in. Yet when you explain to them what they are missing, what employees get, they also like that.

Do you also explain some of the downsides of being an employee? I don’t know if they are dying for the rigid hours, bureaucracy, same environment etc. it’s not all upside being an employee

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#488

Post by xapata »

lathiat wrote: post #441
kyle_martin1 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a…

This is a problem with Taxi drivers as well. Have had friends too close to the airport miss flights because drivers keep rejecting the fare because it goes to drivers near the airport who want a long trip.

I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#489

Post by hexagone »

throwawaygh wrote: post #72

When companies like Uber/Lyft depend on safety nets like unemployment without ever paying into the system, what’s happening is that our children are paying for returns on VC capital. People profiting from these types of companies should feel bad about themselves.

If drivers preferred full time employment over flexibility, wouldn't they have joined a traditional taxi/limo service instead of Uber or Lyft?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#490

Post by m0zg »

Yeah, removing the means to make a living from 200K people in CA while also pushing millions of people to crowded and epidemiologically disastrous public transportation seems like a particularly idiotic idea right about now. I'm not necessarily against better labor protections, and I only do Uber rides maybe 3-4 times a year, and not in CA, but I'm sure there will be a better time to argue this out to its logical conclusion.
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