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App stores, trust and anti-trust

ben-evans.com

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Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#81

Post by scarface74 »

panpanna wrote: post #60
scarface74 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You notice that Epic isn’t insisting on in app payments for any of the consoles, why not? Can I use in app payments within the Epic app that allow me to bypass Epic and get virtual currency even cheaper than Epic? Epic gets to choose how people buy currency on its platform. What’s the difference?

I think their fee is much lower. Also, there are competing "stores" on PC, including the buy-cd-from-physical-store-and-pay-no-fees option. On iPhone it's apples way or the highway. So while epic are hypocrites, they can be bypassed easily.

There are no competing stores within Fortnite’s “platform”.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#82

Post by scarface74 »

amelius wrote: post #79
scarface74 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s also against the rules.

And how about: one developer creates a web-browser with some features that will make it start fast on certain web-apps that don't use javascript but only wasm, while other developers create apps for that browser?

Having an alternative web engine is also against the rules. No I don’t agree with that rule.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#83

Post by wayneftw »

scarface74 wrote: post #51
sa46 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably: > This second one is instructive: the EU is taking the view that Apple has a monopoly of payment on the iPhone. Market definition is everything. I-am-not-a-lawyer, but I don’t see how Apple can win on Spotify (or Kindle), and I don’t think it should. And the final sentence: > Apple finally won the argument with users’ wallets, and that means it’s not niche anymore - Apple has become the navy, and differen…

Can I put music on Spotify without them getting a cut?

Yes, you can import any mp3 that you want into your Spotify playlists.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#84

Post by simion314 »

alex_t wrote: post #78
simion314 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, my web hosting is not jealous if I pay them 100$/year and I do sales of 1 million. If say my site generates too much traffic then I will have to upgrade the CPU,HDD etc. They make money when I am successful and use their resources. I can always change the web hosting and still reach my existing customers where with Apple I can't reach my existing customers if Apple kicks me out(see Epic)

I dont think that is a fair comparison, you took away all the issues with branding, your customer dont really care if you are hosting a website yourself or aws or anything else, probably most of them wont even know what that means. If you want to start to sell ebooks (or anything really) you get an advantage by placing it in a well known store, you can prove me wrong but i think that is a fair statement. So it is rea…

Netflix or Epic do not benefit of Apple Store brand, my bank does not put their app in Google or Apple sore because they hope to get on "top apps" , they put their app there because they have no choice, the users are there and they want an app.

If you think the Apple Sore brand or "top apps" is important then have extra options (like web hosting). So I might not want my app to be promoted, I just want my users to be able to install the app I link from my website similar how they can install it on their PC. If my updates are eat6inb bandwidth then I pay for that, if I want to be promoted I can pay for that, if I want support I can pay for that, if I want an IDE I can pay for that etc.

I think you are putting popular apps like Netflix,Epic,Dropbox, my bank thagt have no choice to be on all platforms with some small video game or TODO app that benefits by getting exposed to people on a "Top apps" or "Similar apps" screen.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#85

Post by simion314 »

scarface74 wrote: post #80
simion314 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, my web hosting is not jealous if I pay them 100$/year and I do sales of 1 million. If say my site generates too much traffic then I will have to upgrade the CPU,HDD etc. They make money when I am successful and use their resources. I can always change the web hosting and still reach my existing customers where with Apple I can't reach my existing customers if Apple kicks me out(see Epic)

You’re not talking about web building. You’re talking about an online store. If I get kicked off of Epic’s platform. Where do I go?

>If I get kicked off of Epic’s platform. Where do I go?

Steam, GOG, Windows Store, itch.io put your app on mega/GDrive,Dropbox and share the link on Facebook and Twitter should I continue ?

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#86

Post by an_opabinia »

Despegar wrote: post #39
an_opabinia wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, it would be great if any of these people had bothered talking to a lawyer or an anti-trust scholar, a provenance that would matter a lot to understanding this issue. For example, almost everyone here will learn more reading "Amazon’s Antitrust Paradox" ( https://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/amazons-antitrust-parado... ) to understand why Epic set things up the particular, exact way they did - because the…

I'm not sure why people think this was some great legal trap pulled off here. Everyone already knows that Apple's commission is 30%. Simply charging less in the app doesn't actually show that Apple's commission is harming consumer welfare (or conversely with Spotify, charging more in iOS). Epic would have to show that Apple's alleged monopoly power is raising prices at a supracompetitive level in a relevant market.

You have a page, it says “if you pay using a credit card versus the same exact credit card except you give to Apple earlier, here is a 20% discount,” that is obviously increasing consumer welfare. Apple booted them when they made that page. It sort of doesn’t have to say anything about the commission, because it doesn’t matter.

Epic could have offered 20% off and STILL paid the commission, and if Apple booted them, it would still harm consumer welfare!

That’s why Ben Evans and Stratechery and so many tech takes are wrong, they’re just not informed on the status quo of antitrust. It’s not material where the consumer welfare comes from, it’s not material the goods being sold are imaginary IAP, etc etc.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#87

Post by scarface74 »

simion314 wrote: post #85
scarface74 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not talking about web building. You’re talking about an online store. If I get kicked off of Epic’s platform. Where do I go?

>If I get kicked off of Epic’s platform. Where do I go? Steam, GOG, Windows Store, itch.io put your app on mega/GDrive,Dropbox and share the link on Facebook and Twitter should I continue ?

I guess I should be more specific. If I get kicked off of Fortnite, can I play in Fortnite’s sandbox? Can I buy virtual coins to use in Fortnite from a third party?

Why does Epic get to be the only company that can sell virtual currency in Fortnite?

What if instead of buying apps with money, Apple made everyone by “Apple points” to buy things on the App Store like MS use to do?

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#88

Post by azinman2 »

tempsy wrote: post #72
scarface74 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon’s stock doubled in a year.

yes so have a lot of tech stocks - i’m obviously talking about a normal year - not one where the Fed prints $3T in a few months and creates the first stock bubble to happen in a recession lol

Except profits re up for all the big tech as people buy computers for Zoom U, working from home, etc. Amazon got a huge cut of commerce generally because it’s delivered during shelter-in-place, and Netflix became the thing to do when everything else is canceled. In this environment, it’s clear that people are fleeing to safety and these are the only companies growing... plus they’re known brand names.

I don’t think it’s fair to say the Fed introducing liquidity is the reason why. You’d need to point to real data to back that up.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#89

Post by alex_t »

simion314 wrote: post #84
alex_t wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think that is a fair comparison, you took away all the issues with branding, your customer dont really care if you are hosting a website yourself or aws or anything else, probably most of them wont even know what that means. If you want to start to sell ebooks (or anything really) you get an advantage by placing it in a well known store, you can prove me wrong but i think that is a fair statement. So it is rea…

Netflix or Epic do not benefit of Apple Store brand, my bank does not put their app in Google or Apple sore because they hope to get on "top apps" , they put their app there because they have no choice, the users are there and they want an app. If you think the Apple Sore brand or "top apps" is important then have extra options (like web hosting). So I might not want my app to be promoted, I just want my users to be…

yes, i am putting all the developer on the app store on the same level, because coding into law the distinction that it's so obvious for you is not going to be easy. at what point "randomgamecompany" became so big to be promoted to "i dont need to pay for the app store anymore." Laws are not perfect, nobody should work for free.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#90

Post by 7786655 »

mvanbaak wrote: post #76
panpanna wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do i get that wrong? Yes. > We want access to all your platform and tools for free? Well, they do pay the $99 annual fee + cost of a Mac required for submitting to the store :) More seriously, you are wrong because Epic/Spotify/etc don't mind giving apple money when they use their payment infrastructure _but_ want to be able to also use their own infrastructure and sell things 30% cheaper. And yes, for companies wi…

You are missing the fact that epic is not a payment provider. So if they dont pay apple the 30%, they will have to pay stripe or adyen or any other psp. Most of those ask 0.25$ + 2% per transaction. For a fortnite skin of 0,99 or even whole apps that cost 0,99 that 30% is lower than the costs of other psp’s. And apple provides a lot more than just payments for that 30%. They handle disputes and refunds etc. and the h…

You're trying to argue that Apple IAP is a good deal for Epic, but Epic has clearly decided that it isn't.
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