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App stores, trust and anti-trust

ben-evans.com

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Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#51

Post by scarface74 »

sa46 wrote: post #25
wayneftw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it. I read it twice and tried searching for "unsustainable" and "dismantle". Could you point out where you said that exactly?

Presumably: > This second one is instructive: the EU is taking the view that Apple has a monopoly of payment on the iPhone. Market definition is everything. I-am-not-a-lawyer, but I don’t see how Apple can win on Spotify (or Kindle), and I don’t think it should. And the final sentence: > Apple finally won the argument with users’ wallets, and that means it’s not niche anymore - Apple has become the navy, and differen…

Can I put music on Spotify without them getting a cut?

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#52

Post by scarface74 »

simion314 wrote: post #38
alex_t wrote: post #36

I am trying to understand why is this business model from apple not acceptable, from my point of view the way apple makes money on the apple store is with the 30% fees on transations. In exchange they give out tools, libraries and services for free. Do i get that wrong? with that in mind isnt the request of Epic something like: "We want access to all your platform and tools for free?"

If I have an ebook store and want to give iOS users a nice experience when buying books Apple will make the books more expensive with 30% and on top of that if I want to give my users information that they have the option to buy cheaper from my website I can't , Apple is preventing their users to get informed/educated on how to get cheaper stuff because this information costs Apple money. Btw you can have apps that d…

Can I put a book in your hypothetical ebook store without giving you a cut?

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#53

Post by panpanna »

alex_t wrote: post #36

I am trying to understand why is this business model from apple not acceptable, from my point of view the way apple makes money on the apple store is with the 30% fees on transations. In exchange they give out tools, libraries and services for free. Do i get that wrong? with that in mind isnt the request of Epic something like: "We want access to all your platform and tools for free?"

> Do i get that wrong?

Yes.

> We want access to all your platform and tools for free?

Well, they do pay the $99 annual fee + cost of a Mac required for submitting to the store :)

More seriously, you are wrong because Epic/Spotify/etc don't mind giving apple money when they use their payment infrastructure _but_ want to be able to also use their own infrastructure and sell things 30% cheaper.

And yes, for companies with multiple sale points (fortnite is also on PC and consoles ?), apple TOS forbids Epic selling things cheaper elsewhere which means in-game item prices are artificially increased by up to 30% on _all platforms_.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#54

Post by tempsy »

scarface74 wrote: post #43
tempsy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't think the rank and file working for "big tech" are emotionally invested in whether their employer can stay a monopoly or not - if anything lack of competition among large employers means its easier to collude with each other to suppress compensation

Well, since a large part of the compensation is RSU’s why wouldn’t an employer of big tech want the monopoly to grow? On the other hand if the company behind Candy Crush were complaining about not making enough on coins, no one would be taking their side.

given that the average tenure for a rank and file at a tech co is like 3 years, no i don’t think a significant number of them really think they want to see a tiny number of big tech cos maintain their monopoly so their RSUs go up 15% a year

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#55

Post by panpanna »

alex_t wrote: post #42
simion314 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have an ebook store and want to give iOS users a nice experience when buying books Apple will make the books more expensive with 30% and on top of that if I want to give my users information that they have the option to buy cheaper from my website I can't , Apple is preventing their users to get informed/educated on how to get cheaper stuff because this information costs Apple money. Btw you can have apps that d…

> If I have an ebook store and want to give iOS users a nice experience when buying books Apple will make the books more expensive with 30% and on top of that if I want to give my users information that they have the option to buy cheaper from my website I can't , Apple is preventing their users to get informed/educated on how to get cheaper stuff because this information costs Apple money. Well i go back to my argum…

How about the $99/yr app store fee they already pay?

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#56

Post by alex_t »

panpanna wrote: post #53
alex_t wrote: post #36

I am trying to understand why is this business model from apple not acceptable, from my point of view the way apple makes money on the apple store is with the 30% fees on transations. In exchange they give out tools, libraries and services for free. Do i get that wrong? with that in mind isnt the request of Epic something like: "We want access to all your platform and tools for free?"

> Do i get that wrong? Yes. > We want access to all your platform and tools for free? Well, they do pay the $99 annual fee + cost of a Mac required for submitting to the store :) More seriously, you are wrong because Epic/Spotify/etc don't mind giving apple money when they use their payment infrastructure _but_ want to be able to also use their own infrastructure and sell things 30% cheaper. And yes, for companies wi…

but how is this different from, for example, me selling stuff on amazon? i want to access the amazon customer pool, so i pay amazon a fee to do it?

what would be apple alternatives that would not imply giving away services for free? i still have an hard time understanding this part: i understand that 30% cut i a lot i am not defending the 30% tax.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#57

Post by tempsy »

resalisbury wrote: post #41
tempsy wrote: post #7

I don't know why anyone reads Ben Evans - he's a sycophant for big tech who seems to lack the ability to objectively reason about monopoly power.

i read him, he's great! take it back ;)

the a16z cult is strong

or you’re all just afraid your boss is reading

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#58

Post by vimota »

I think a more interesting angle is to look at incentives. With Apple deriving so much revenue from having a stranglehold on software running on iOS, are they incentivized to improve the mobile web (which would be an alternative to being forced to use an app for many use cases)? Are they actively stifling innovation in web standards for mobile because of their conflict of interest? As more and more of internet usage goes mobile, mobile web becomes the default web and Apple's market dominance in the space gives them the same power of its development as Microsoft had with IE pre-2001.

Another thing to consider is, if Apple has such a dominant position in this critical market, how are they using it to dominate other adjacent markets? For example, they're able to provide the exact same service as Spotify, Netflix, Dropbox but with a 30% pricing advantage. What other markets will they enter with this advantage? And should they be able to? And that's to speak nothing of their other non-financial advantages (ie. first-party integrations, native "advertising" of services, etc).

I look forward to a DOJ investigation, mostly because it's only in these probes where you get answers to the above questions, and understand the degree to which the company is considering these problems internally.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#59

Post by dariosalvi78 »

scarface74 wrote: post #45
dariosalvi78 wrote: post #30

According to this article, billions of desktop operating systems users would not be able to handle their computers without destroying them with malware.

Which one are you more likely to do, install a random app on your phone from an untrusted author or your computer?

In my case none or both, depending on the need. The point is, you could allow lower security if people need it and it's not necessarily that catastrophic as the author suggests.

Re: App stores, trust and anti-trust

#60

Post by panpanna »

scarface74 wrote: post #40
lsiebert wrote: post #31

Epic is fine with the appstore, but it wants to handle it's own in-app payments. You can have an app store with a separate in app payments; Uber does for example. Epic says as much in it's argument for a preliminary injunction.* Stadia is actually more of an existential issue than Epic because they want to run unapproved games. * https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327...

You notice that Epic isn’t insisting on in app payments for any of the consoles, why not? Can I use in app payments within the Epic app that allow me to bypass Epic and get virtual currency even cheaper than Epic? Epic gets to choose how people buy currency on its platform. What’s the difference?

I think their fee is much lower.

Also, there are competing "stores" on PC, including the buy-cd-from-physical-store-and-pay-no-fees option. On iPhone it's apples way or the highway.

So while epic are hypocrites, they can be bypassed easily.

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