Earlier quoted context omitted.
'Ridesharing' (Which is a hilarious term for the simple fact that the ride is not being shared, the driver is not intending to go to your favorite bar. ) isn't a 21st century situation or solution. It's not a profitable or a good force in an economy, it does not pay a reasonable wage for anyone to live on, it is not environmentally friendly unless done in large quantities of people,(which is called a bus). Ridesharin…
Why do you get to decide what a fair wage is, or what a positive force in the economy is? Taxis are an obsolete service, Lyft and Uber are overwhelmingly favored by customers and businesses.
Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
901–910 of 1001 posts
Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
#902Kudos on that moral victory California. You robbed my mobility-impaired younger sister of her legs without providing any alternative. Fuck your sorry excuse of public transit filled with gawkers and requiring her to wonder whether there will be connected sidewalks for her to solve her last-two-mile trip on her chair. "Oh, but Uber and Lyft were brought down by their own greed" Well, where is the non-greedy alternativ…
This is a bit unfair. Yes, the public transit in cali sucks, but there needs to be a minimum standard with how we treat workers. Gig work was initially framed as a side thing where somebody going to the same area as you hops in your car and you share a ride. Like on demand carpooling. That is no longer the case, its people's livelihoods due to economic inequities and lack of normal jobs available to match the demand…
There's a huge difference between 'People should not be forced to' vs. 'people should not be'. I think your case is the latter.
Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
#903Earlier quoted context omitted.
The "it'll take time to make this change and so we're suspending services for a while" argument is just a PR stunt. Even if you disagree with the law, Uber/Lyft knew it was coming - they've known for a long time now. Instead of getting ready for it, they chose to spend their time filing lawsuits (which were never going to succeed) and preparing for a ballot initiative. So let's not argue that the law itself "put driv…
"knew it was coming" is hindsight 20/20 thinking. They've been fighting it tooth and nail the whole time. If prop 22 passes (as it seems it will), then can we really say we "saw it coming"? And likewise, legislators knew about the Austin precedent, so they can't say they "didn't see it coming" either.
Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
#904Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everyone keeps saying the substitute for Uber/Lyft is taxis. Maybe this is HN bay-area bias but it is just wrong. The substitute for Uber/Lyft in 95% of the US is driving your own car! Driving your own car has significant externalities, eg. More need for parking, more emissions, more drunk driving. I don't live in CA but used to do a fair amount of work travel out there. If they don't have Uber/Lyft in the future, I'…
I think OP's argument is the reason why it's "driving your own car" in those markets outside of denser cities is because operating a taxi fleet is not profitable at those densities, in part because of employee protections and other regulatory hurdles, and that removing those protections (and shifting additional costs to the state) is what allows uber/lyft to create an alternative to "driving your own car" in a place…
Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
#905Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it ultimately just comes down to paternalistic protection Isn't this same 'paternalistic protection' the same force Silicon Valley uses to guarantee monopoly rents from 'intellectual property'? "A globalised intellectual property rights system was immensely strengthened by TRIPS (Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights) passed through the World Trade Organisation in 1994, shaped by a few US multinatio…
Sure? I'm not particularly familiar with this law, but I generally agree patents should have relatively modest limits. Not sure how this applies to the current conversation though, of all the things that Uber and Lyft are commonly accused of I don't think protectionist patent enforcement is among them?
You mentioned you disagreed with all of the OP's substantial arguments, and then you made a few claims without any sources to back it up. I am using your idea of 'paternalistic protection' to challenge a commonly held idea which posits that the current neoliberal regulations are somehow neutral. Your statement that the big tech gig-worker platforms provide likeable or meaningful jobs is very misguided and naive imo.
To address one of your statements:
> Gig economy workers have overwhelmingly spoken that they like this work, by continuing to sign up for it in massive numbers.
“Uber is lauded as an exemplary ‘platform’. When it arrives in a target city, it launches a packaged recruiting programme for drivers, usually offering incentives. Then it undercuts official taxi fares by operating a flexible, demand-based fare scheme; this lowers fares at times of slack demand and raises them when demand is strong so as to attract more drivers. Once established, Uber uses drivers to offer other services. Just as Google uses search-related advertising to generate income with which it enters other businesses, so Uber’s plan is to offer ‘transportation as reliable as running water, everywhere for everyone’.9
Thus it has branched out into delivery services, providing lunch delivery, cycle courier services and deliveries of household supplies in various US cities. It reaches out to retailers as well, offering same-day deliveries. While others such as Postmates and Shyp are in the same space, Uber has greater scale and financial clout. It can raise cash quickly from new city operations and has been able to tap investors for huge sums – more than $9 billion by the end of 2015 – with which to intimidate competitors.
This has enabled Uber to finance operational losses as it expands into new markets by undercutting actual and potential rivals. According to leaked documents the company prepared for investors, operational losses reached a staggering $1 billion in the first half of 2015.10 Yet Uber more than doubled its cash holdings to over $4 billion, giving it a handy war chest for future expansion.
Private equity financing enables Uber to squash competition through predatory pricing, extracting greater rents as its near-monopoly strengthens. Other start-ups are also gaining near-monopoly positions with the help of venture capital. They are not competing in free markets.
The USA has led the way. Paradoxically, private investors and private companies, as opposed to publicly listed companies, were boosted by the US Jobs Act of 2012 (Jumpstart Our Businesses), which was supposed to encourage firms to go public and list on Wall Street. President Obama said at the time that public companies were desirable because they expanded more quickly, created more jobs and operated with ‘greater oversight and greater transparency’. But, whereas previously private firms were required to publish detailed financial information once they had over 500 shareholders, the Act increased that to 2,000. As a result, many more companies can opt to stay private so as to keep control in the hands of a restricted group and avoid public scrutiny of their dealings.
The capital for digital platforms, even the largest of which have chosen to remain private, comes from a narrow circle of investors from mutual funds, private equity firms, hedge funds and sovereign wealth funds. It is a market reserved for the elite and plutocracy, a sort of closet capitalism. Making it even more so, investors often demand assurances that the company will indemnify them if it goes public at a lower valuation. This ‘ratchet’ arrangement grants them extra shares to compensate for any shortfall. They thereby receive a free insurance against risk, a special form of rent.”
[...]
“In the first round of this predatory model, the taskers (in this case drivers) may be among the beneficiaries, receiving loyalty premiums. But this is likely to be short-lived once a platform has established monopoly control of the market (or possibly oligopoly control by several platforms that tacitly agree to divvy up the market). The earnings of Uber drivers have already been cut in cities where the company is successfully established.”
- Guy Standing, The Corruption of Capitalism: Why rentiers thrive and work does not pay
Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
#906Earlier quoted context omitted.
MLM companies continue to be popular, despite the fact that the majority of people lose money by participating. I agree that portions of the left can be paternalistic sometimes, but that doesn't mean Uber and Lyft aren't exploitative.
I think MLM is different. A small number of people might make a lot of money, funded by the losses of most of the rest. In that respect its more like gambling, and people can be more easily fooled to think that they'll be one of the lucky few. Working as a driver for uber/lyft isn't really like that at all. You know approximately how much you can stand to make per hour. There isn't a small pool of drivers somehow mak…
Sounds like Uber to me.
Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
#907Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, I don't have a wheelchair-bound piano tuner handy to ask, so I'll have to model this person based on other wheelchair users I've been acquainted with over the years. So let's ask this imaginary person: Would you rather get free rides everywhere you need to go, or have to wait in the rain/snow/heat for the bus, feeling the stress of inconveniencing others with the ramp, and having to wheel yourself the rest of t…
I think that's somewhat uncharitable of a take. But fundamentally, I agree with you. See my other comment. In this ideal , the experience for the wheelchair-bound is comparable to others. Not the current embarrassment we have in New York, for example.
The thing is, there are a few reasons why the able-bodied tend to prefer the experience of a ride-hailing app over public transit.
- it comes to where you are, and drops you off exactly where you're going
- you get a ride when you're ready to go, and not whenever the transit is running
- higher chances of getting rides at weird hours
- no risk of interacting with aggressive panhandlers, people high on drugs, the mentally ill, or people with bad personal hygiene
Public transit has significant advantages, as well: biggest among them, it avoids the tragedy of the commons, particularly road congestion and carbon emissions. It has salubrious effects on urban planning. Places with good public transit are nice places to live.
What I want to point out is that, every one of the advantages for the able-bodied are significantly exaggerated for wheelchair users.
I don't think it's possible to offer a comparable experience, due to the very nature of the disability. So if it's more expensive to offer the less desirable option, well, we shouldn't do that.
More expensive public transit means picking from the following buckets: less transit, more expensive tickets, less pay for workers, starving other municipal programs, or kicking the problem down the road with municipal debt. None of those are great; they can be worth it for a better experience (replacing old worn-down cars for example), but not for a worse one.
Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
#908Imagine a distributed, open-source, bit-coin like version of Uber. There's no company, drivers get 100%, set their prices, and somehow a distributed protocol allows people to broadcast a bid for a ride, and nearby drivers could accept it. It would 1) workaround the law, there's no employer, no company, and no one to sanction 2) be impossible to regulate or shutdown
Currently drivers don't get to set their own prices and have to abide by other such things that don't make them independent contractors in the eyes on the law.
Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
#909Earlier quoted context omitted.
Uber and Lyft are voluntarily suspending operations to make a political point; they are the ones kicking the little guy while they're down. The fact that these companies can spend 100 million to dismantle the outcome of the political process shows how little power the California government actually has.
Tough to call anything done as voluntary with a gun held up to the head. Their entire business model (which has not been super profitable to say the least) was just made illegal in California. Life goes on though, probably the Taxi industry is very pleased, many of the full-time drivers will go on to work as Taxi drivers, licensed with hours and all. And I'll just lower my expectations for getting a taxi dispatched w…
Their business model has been illegal since at least the 2018 Dynamex decision. The only sudden moves here are from Lyft.
Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California
#910Earlier quoted context omitted.
> without providing any alternative Taxis still exist. Given the history of Uber and Lyft drivers denying access to riders with wheelchairs, decrying the loss of their services seems weird.
HAHAHA. OMG - as one who doesn't drive, and took taxis in the Bay area (South Bay - Sunnyvale, Mountain View, Redwood City) for 7 years (2003 - 2010) - pretty much everywhere - let me tell you that taxis on the Peninsula are the most poorly managed, poorly responsive, and incredibly bad service imaginable. Fully 30-40% of taxis just never show up when you call them. That number gets even higher after 9:00 PM if you a…
Aren't the rates basically set by the drivers? I've never driven for Uber or Lyft but my impression was that drivers have a choice of whether to accept each request or not. If the offered price for a ride is "too low" (but someone still accepts it) that just highlights the fact that your idea of "too low" is not the only one that matters. Maybe your competition isn't relying on this for a living. Maybe they've found other ways to reduce their costs. Either way, I don't really see a problem aside from certain parties' unrealistically high expectations.
Personally I feel a bit sorry for all of the people that deliberately chose to take on these gig jobs as freelancers who are now being pressured into becoming employees to salve the overactive consciences of people who aren't even involved. Not everyone wants to be classified as an employee, with all the restrictions that entails.