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Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

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Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, except now instead of having the option of taxis and ride share companies she can only use taxis which have artificially inflated prices due to constricted supply.

The OP says they can't be profitable and you're saying they're too profitable at the rider's expense. Which is it?

Taxis are subject to the medallion system where municipalities deliberately limit the number of taxis that can operate. This certainly increases prices for consumers. If Uber and Lyft aren't profitable the they run the possibility of going out of business.

The former is a definite harm to consumers. The latter is a possibility of loss for investors.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who forced Lyft to shut down? Was it the state, or did they freely choose to cease operations? Obviously, spin will characterize this in any way that's advantageous. But nobody 'forced' Lyft to close.

Their business model is on-demand transportation. The business model doesn't work if the workforce is not also on-demand. I don't think that's spin, but maybe society decides that we don't like on-demand businesses.

There is no evidence that the business model doesn't work, otherwise traditional cab companies would've never survived. Rideshare companies undercut traditional cabs by operating illegally, but that doesn't mean a regulated model can't work.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#893
post #720

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Imagine creating an app called "Clean Streets" - basically people can put bounties on streets, other people can collect the bounty by picking up the litter. Sounds like a great little idea right? The app takes a 1% fee for server upkeep. Win/win, bored teenagers make some extra money and your neighborhood gets cleaned up... right? Wrong. Turns out, people aren't willing to pay that much for people to clean up their s…

In this particular, specific case - there are. They are called taxes, and in most urban areas, they fund regular street sweeping.

Or fines for people who litter. An improvement that actually punishes the people who caused the problem and not those who did nothing wrong.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#894

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool story, like a mini american dream! Some drivers have differing views on the topic though :(

If driving is what someone has decided to solely do for a living, then they should get a driving job . There's plenty of driving jobs that aren't driving gigs . In my mind, the definition of "gig" sets the expectation for the type of work it will be.

then they should get a driving job

Why? I’m a consultant - and this is what I do for a living. Why isn’t freelance work respectable or acceptable in your view?

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#895
post #715
post #536

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Ridesharing created a more or less competitive market for this slice of the transportation sector. Competitive markets are the best way to allocate resources. If you don't agree with that, it will be hard to have a productive discussion. But if you do agree with that, shouldn't we resolve inequalities by directly supporting the least fortunate (with cash) rather than force parties into arbitrary economic relationship…

> the best way to allocate resources i think the word that jumps out at me here is "best". what does this mean? is there an absolute agreed-upon best, or is best relative? in this situation (re: ride-share companies), i think it's entirely possible that there are overall market wins -- more money ends up circulating -- but that there are local losers, specifically the employees of these companies, and local winners -…

I meant "best" in the sense of achieving some sort of maximum total utility, mean utility, median utility, etc.

My point is that instead of inspecting every economic relationship for "winners" and "losers", we should tax the winners and support the losers at a global level.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#896

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AB5 was an absolute cop-out by the CA Legislature. They should have defined a third class of workers with protections somewhere in between Contractors and Employees. But when it comes to the vote in November, a vote to exempt Uber/Lyft from AB5 is a vote to strip drivers of all protections. Uber and Lyft will be free to go back to exploiting drivers for Maybe you are hoping the legislature will eventually come up wit…

> I don't think I can tell someone else they don't deserve to earn minimum wage. On the wage issue are you talking about the specifics of how prop 22 defines the earnings floor for drivers [0]? It definitely sets a standard even. It pays some for expenses ($0.30/mile) and the 120% minimum wage while on a ride covers a bit of time spent driving between rides. I could see though how if you have high expenses and don't…

I didn't realize that Prop 22 added some additional protections for drivers, thank you for bringing those up! I thought it was just send drivers straight back to the basic independent contractor rules.

I don't love that Uber/Lyft basically drafted Prop 22. There are features like only paying Engaged Time and not pinning the extra per-mile rate to the IRS standard (which is $0.57 per mile in 2020) which you can tell benefit them. That being said, my argument about removing wage protections is certainly dampened by the new earnings floors.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Ridesharing' (Which is a hilarious term for the simple fact that the ride is not being shared, the driver is not intending to go to your favorite bar. ) isn't a 21st century situation or solution. It's not a profitable or a good force in an economy, it does not pay a reasonable wage for anyone to live on, it is not environmentally friendly unless done in large quantities of people,(which is called a bus). Ridesharin…

I agree with you on one point, "ridesharing" is a silly word. I would call it something like an "Open Car Service". The main reason I can't get on board with the rest of this line of argument is that it ultimately just comes down to paternalistic protection of the poor disenfranchised gig workers that you clearly view as being less than capable, rational adult humans. The number of gig economy workers has been growin…

> ultimately just comes down to paternalistic protection of the poor disenfranchised gig workers that you clearly view as being less than capable, rational adult humans

That is one way to editorialize what is going on. An alternative explanation is that human organization is inherently a high friction, high cost endevor, and in the case of a company vs workers/contractors, we have a massive assymetry in the degree of organization in incentives; a company is a well defined entity, gathered around the normativity of profit maximization, every stop and turn of its machinery is well oiled and properly encoded, acting as a single agent in every negotiation. Whereas workers/contractors, even though have their individual interests heavily aligned (don’t be stiffed, get a fair wage), this alignment is not by default organized, as the employer-employee relationship is a one-to-many relationship. This asymmetry, not paternalizing non-adult humans, is what drives the unfairness in negotiations in favor of companies.

Unions, legislation etc merely represents an effort in organization of the will of the “many” and to cure this asymmetry. Not saying they are perfect, not even that they work, but there is an asymmetry that gets exploited.

> Gig economy workers have overwhelmingly spoken that they like this work, by continuing to sign up for it in massive numbers

The problem in this model of negotiation is that the gig workers choices of expression are limited to “work or gtfo”. For one, given the fact that people need money to live, their participation doesn’t necessarily mean “they like this work”. Going back to the organization principle, if they were to carry out the combinatorially explosive task of communicating among themselves that they would want $5/hr more payment, or they would not work at all (quite symmetrical to the maneuver lyft&uber pulled today) it is very likely that they would get it. But “work or gtfo” binary doesn’t allow any room for expressing that. In other words, current price point is an artifact of lessened negotiation power of the collective gig workers because it is not as easy for them to negotiate collectively as uber/lyft can set the pricing.

> Getting rid of Uber and Lyft completely throws out the baby with the bathwater here.

No one is suggesting this. Not saying that the legistlation that was proposed is perfect, but the argument is “let’s level the playing field” and if Uber and Lyft can exist under fair conditions, then they do deserve to exist.

There is nothing far-left or vindictive about this. It is catching up with the innovation of exponentially scaling, tech based, loss-leader market captures. It is as far-left as reducing work days to 5 or outlawing child labor was.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#898

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No employer would accept fulltime employees working for their direct competitor at the same time?

You think Burger King gives a shit if their cashier also takes shifts at McDonalds?

They certainly don't let you work for both at the exact same moment in time (which is quite common with drivers who have both Uber and Lyft open at same moment). Also Burger King generally sets your schedule and McDonalds usually sets your schedule. It's usually not feasible to work for both, because they both might end up scheduling you in the same time slot.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#899

Not being from the US the only thing I don't understand is why does CA expect taxi drivers to be employees? Here in Slovakia even regular taxi drivers can be independent contractors and it's perfectly OK with the law, a lot of taxi drivers here even ride for multiple companies (regular taxi dispatchers, uber, bolt, their own prices for longer trips)

Drivers are allowed to be independent contractors in California. But the law requires that the drivers be truly independent in ways that Uber and Lyft do not allow.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that mean that when I remodel my house, I would have to negotiate on time and materials terms, lest the contractor accidentally underbid and end up with less than minimum wage? I think the law rightfully distinguishes between truly negotiable contracts and take-it-or-leave-it terms offered by a party with more negotiating power.

Of course not. The prices someone sets are not related to the wages they're paid. You're paying a price; you're not paying a wage. The contractors are paid a wage by the business owner; if he pays them less than minimum wage it's illegal; if he pays them more, but does not recoup that cost on the job because he underbid it, that's a business loss.

Why do we treat these things differently? Why is the GC permitted to make bad business decisions and earn below minimum wage, but the people he employs are not?

This is entirely arbitrary.

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