Rideshare operations are being suspended in California • Hacker News Board

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#601

Post by wrkrinsec99 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

coolsunglasses wrote: post #422

wrkrinsec99 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both parties have supported Fed leadership that relied on worker insecurity to keep people in their jobs: https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-o... America does not have a stories history of being labor friendly. It’s pretty much old European pissing competitions imported anew after WW2. Identity which the country had begun to schlep off between the Gilded Age and WW1. Refugees brought it back o…

Aristotle considered democracy a deviant form of a polity. His views on democracy are more negative and complex than you're making it sound, which leads me to doubt what you're saying about the rest. To learn more: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-politics/

Forgive me for not satisfying you with a nuanced treatise on a casual forum. Aristotle’s ultimate conclusion was that “for the average person” Democracy was the moral government.

He was not of average status. His nuance and negativity was, to my mind, self preservation driven. Nonetheless, he understood the benefits of Democracy to what we’d call “Main Street” life as obvious. He dismissed on those grounds as well, given the threat to his status. He got what it meant as an idea and agreed it would be a moral win for the public.

Ultimately I’m not writing a biography here. This isn’t rocket science and there’s little new territory to really be walked.

America of a generation ago had high taxes flooding communities with money. Now that generation is wielding a nations wealth against the next generation.

America is a lot of control freaks policing each other for compliance to sound economics and calling it freedom.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#602

Post by cgriswald » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #519

ianferrel wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's an anti-moonlight clause, I think it's saying that you can't do what many drivers do now, which is sign on to both apps and wait for a ride to come in, then sign out of the one you're not serving. If you're an employee on the clock, you can't be on the clock for two different organizations at the same time.

>you can't be on the clock for two different companies at the same time I mean, I don't see why not. Would create some inefficiencies. But I don't think there is a law against that.

When I was a BOFH, we had a guy working the night shift who would always be a little slow at getting processing done in time for the rest of corporate to show up and need their data. It was odd but I don’t remember anyone looking into it.

Until one time there was a problem with one of the jobs (which meant other jobs could not be run) and no one had their data in the morning. He was asked why he didn’t contact one of us for help and didn’t really have an answer.

The boss checked the cameras to figure out what this guy was doing. Turns out the guy came in, started as many of the jobs as could be run in parallel, then left to work his shift at another place, came back on his lunch break and fired off another round of jobs, left and finished his shift at the other place, then came back and finished his shift at our place (our shifts were 10-17 hours long). He was confronted and admitted it. I don’t recall if he was fired or if he quit.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#603

Post by seiferteric » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

Infinitesimus wrote: post #498

fizzled wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The road to hell... ...is paved with (IMHO) an irrational support for billionaires getting richer at the expense of the exploitation of the commoner.

But isn't the better position here to create a bill that decouples health benefits from the employer and allow contractors to have better lives?

This exactly. I can't for the life of me figure out why so many people think we should keep saddling private companies with all of this stuff. We should make operating a business as simple as possible. If you want everyone to have healthcare, pass universal healthcare (in California at least).

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#604

Post by cactus2093 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

AgloeDreams wrote: post #461

dmode wrote: post #231

I dislike Uber and Lyft's practices as much as the next guy. But I also believe AB5 is a terrible bill and will be voting in November to exempt Uber and Lyft from AB5. AB5 was written to impose a 20th century employment model to a 21st century situation. As such, the bill is distorted that it carve out hundreds of exemptions to musicians, freelancers, journalists, doctors, hair stylists and so on and so forth. A bill…

'Ridesharing' (Which is a hilarious term for the simple fact that the ride is not being shared, the driver is not intending to go to your favorite bar. ) isn't a 21st century situation or solution. It's not a profitable or a good force in an economy, it does not pay a reasonable wage for anyone to live on, it is not environmentally friendly unless done in large quantities of people,(which is called a bus). Ridesharin…

I agree with you on one point, "ridesharing" is a silly word. I would call it something like an "Open Car Service".

The main reason I can't get on board with the rest of this line of argument is that it ultimately just comes down to paternalistic protection of the poor disenfranchised gig workers that you clearly view as being less than capable, rational adult humans. The number of gig economy workers has been growing exponentially for years? Somebody must be tricking them into taking this shit work, and confusing them about the real costs.

Gig economy workers have overwhelmingly spoken that they like this work, by continuing to sign up for it in massive numbers. Or at least that they like it more than their alternatives at the time. If it were some massive trap, don't you think the word would have gotten out by now? The ability to entirely set their own schedule and work as much or little as they choose is appealing enough to draw people in in droves, despite all of the downsides of this type of work.

Getting rid of Uber and Lyft completely throws out the baby with the bathwater here. It won't magically create alternative full time jobs that these workers will prefer to their current situation, it'll just make it much harder for many of them to have any work. Surely there are better incremental policies that could limit the downsides for many of these workers without taking away most of the positives for them too.

As with many far-leftist beliefs these days, I can't help but conclude that the driving factor for a law like AB5 is punitive anger towards successful, wealthy organizations. Just like with the NIMBYs using socialist rhetoric to justify blocking needed middle class housing, it's much more important that the organizations they see as the bad guys suffer than it is to maximize the overall, utilitarian good for the parties they claim to care about. I sincerely hope this way of thinking dies out, almost as much as I hope the current far-right way of thinking dies out.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#605

Post by kooshball » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #276

opportune wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I don’t think Uber drivers are as stupid as you think they are. They legitimately want to be able to drive flexibly. Also they keep about 75% of receipts for their driving (average gross margin for Uber is under 25%).

> Also they keep about 75% of receipts for their driving That's good because that way they can pay for their car insurance, health insurance, pension, gas, car maintenance, self employment taxes, frequent car cleaning, &c. I'm not saying the drivers are stupid, I'm saying Uber &co are very smart.

When you're pulling the "Stockholm syndrome" card you're basically implying the drivers are stupid and unable to recognize they're victims.

Not sure how else to read your previous statement.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#606

Post by aeturnum » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

bgorman wrote: post #513

AgloeDreams wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Ridesharing' (Which is a hilarious term for the simple fact that the ride is not being shared, the driver is not intending to go to your favorite bar. ) isn't a 21st century situation or solution. It's not a profitable or a good force in an economy, it does not pay a reasonable wage for anyone to live on, it is not environmentally friendly unless done in large quantities of people,(which is called a bus). Ridesharin…

Why do you get to decide what a fair wage is, or what a positive force in the economy is? Taxis are an obsolete service, Lyft and Uber are overwhelmingly favored by customers and businesses.

>Taxis are an obsolete service

How do you think about taxis v.s. Lyft / Uber (which I would call "taxi services")?

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#607

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

bgorman wrote: post #513

AgloeDreams wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Ridesharing' (Which is a hilarious term for the simple fact that the ride is not being shared, the driver is not intending to go to your favorite bar. ) isn't a 21st century situation or solution. It's not a profitable or a good force in an economy, it does not pay a reasonable wage for anyone to live on, it is not environmentally friendly unless done in large quantities of people,(which is called a bus). Ridesharin…

Why do you get to decide what a fair wage is, or what a positive force in the economy is? Taxis are an obsolete service, Lyft and Uber are overwhelmingly favored by customers and businesses.

Ok - so we can't afford to pay people for their work any more. We can't afford benefits. We can't afford unemployment. We can't afford to create an economy where people reliably earn enough to buy housing and pay for essentials.

And this in one of the most prosperous economies in the world.

Do you not understand that this is what you're arguing for?

Do you also not understand that if you don't already have a huge pile of fuck-you money as a buffer, your privileged steady middle class job will be next to be "disrupted" - likely by the end of the decade?

Because why would your employer's customers pay more than they feel like paying when they can the same service from an automation-aided gig economy developer who has been beaten down to the point where they're two weeks of savings away from being homeless?

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#608

Post by stefan_ » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

woeirua wrote: post #29

I suspect that California is going to backpedal on this pretty quickly. Uber and Lyft are popular. Going back to taxis is going to be very unpopular. IMO, if the California Republican party was smart they would make this a wedge issue in the next election. "Elect us, and we'll make it possible to use Uber again."

California literally paid billions in unemployment to rideshare drivers during Corona, funds that Uber and Lyft didn't contribute a cent to, but you feel it's sensible Republican policy to declare "next year, we'll do it all over again"?

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#609

Post by cool_dude85 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #566

tehwebguy wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you have that inverted: if your employer gives you a schedule (among other things), that makes you an employee.

Correct. But the point stands about being able to only work for one ride sharing app. How could they possibly cover minimum wage for folks without setting a schedule and requiring that they not be working for other apps at the same time?

Hilarious stuff here. "Yes, I was wrong in my original post, I had it absolutely backwards. However, did you consider something totally unrelated?"

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#610

Post by samatman » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

silviogutierrez wrote: post #497

fotta wrote: post #344

Another group caught in the collateral damage is people in wheelchairs. Paratransit sucks in most places and where wheelchair accessible Uber/Lyft is available they provide a much better service. This is an especially vulnerable population because it's not like a wheelchair user can just find a friend with an accessible vehicle to take them to appointments, etc.

A while ago — and I have no citations for this — I read it was easier to just pay for private rides for every accessible person than to make NYC and SF's public transportation accessible. Yes, in perpetuity. Considerably cheaper, too. Why then, go through the effort? Because they should be integrated into society like all others. I firmly believe public transportation has benefits beyond efficiency. Something about a…

Well, I don't have a wheelchair-bound piano tuner handy to ask, so I'll have to model this person based on other wheelchair users I've been acquainted with over the years.

So let's ask this imaginary person: Would you rather get free rides everywhere you need to go, or have to wait in the rain/snow/heat for the bus, feeling the stress of inconveniencing others with the ramp, and having to wheel yourself the rest of the distance to your destination?

That's if the bus arrives on time, which it won't. But keep in mind! silviogutierrez will feel better about themself if you take the bus! "poetic and noble" were the exact words.