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2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

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Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#71

Post by throwaway_35345 »

bahlhala wrote: post #59
Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads like you don't see individuals, you just see representatives of racial and gender groups. That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. What is the fundamental difference between these essentialising, group-identity-based views?

i get where you are coming from.. but the problem is the lack of a better option, this is not a perfect solution. as i said elswhere in comments - i saw my dad being respected for an ability to do stuff with his computer (computers were not generally used in offices etc. at the time). my childs mind wanted to get some of that respect.. so i invested time learning and playing with computers. I saw white dudes on tv do…

> i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter

Are you going to tell her how you did it?

This seems like a real ends-justify-the-means dilema. I think what you're advocating for is fundamentally immoral. I accept it probably achieves the result we want, but we mustn't do it because it's wrong.

Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#72

Post by dleslie »

throwaway_35345 wrote: post #71
bahlhala wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i get where you are coming from.. but the problem is the lack of a better option, this is not a perfect solution. as i said elswhere in comments - i saw my dad being respected for an ability to do stuff with his computer (computers were not generally used in offices etc. at the time). my childs mind wanted to get some of that respect.. so i invested time learning and playing with computers. I saw white dudes on tv do…

> i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter Are you going to tell her how you did it? This seems like a real ends-justify-the-means dilema. I think what you're advocating for is fundamentally immoral . I accept it probably achieves the result we want, but we mustn't do it because it's wrong .

What is immoral about educating your children how to achieve the abilities you exhibit?

Or am I misreading; what, specifically, do you think is immoral here? Perhaps I'm confused.

Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#73

Post by throwaway_35345 »

dleslie wrote: post #72
throwaway_35345 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter Are you going to tell her how you did it? This seems like a real ends-justify-the-means dilema. I think what you're advocating for is fundamentally immoral . I accept it probably achieves the result we want, but we mustn't do it because it's wrong .

What is immoral about educating your children how to achieve the abilities you exhibit? Or am I misreading; what, specifically, do you think is immoral here? Perhaps I'm confused.

When you said

> i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter.

I thought you were expressing support for no longer hiring white men, which is what the thread was about? I think that's immoral.

Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#74

Post by kthejoker2 »

raxxorrax wrote: post #14
CincinnatiMan wrote: post #3

> (2) Expand our diversity recruitment programs specifically targeting women, people of color, and LGBT people with the goal of doubling recruitment of these groups in 2017 and steadily increasing the share of these groups as a proportion of new hiring in subsequent years. Initiatives like this worry me that we'll end up like my previous employer where we were off-the-record instructed not to hire a white male for ou…

This is actually structural racism in contrast to attesting it on society or some specific people. Honestly, I think this letter is quite weak. To see Trump as a racist is a result of medial smear campaigns. He might have a foul mouth, but I have different definition of what constitutes a racist. You can have countless reasons to dislike Trump, but he is no racist. Maybe the signers of this letters are.

* "shithole countries"

* "they're animals"

* "We can't allow these people to invade our country"

* "Mexican judge"

* multiple accounts of him calling black peope "n-gg-rs"

* "Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day."

* “When Donald and Ivana came to the casino, the bosses would order all the black people off the floor"

* The Central Park Five ad (never mind that they were innocent, a racist wrote it)

* literally settled out of court for racially discriminating as a landlord

* They don’t look like Indians to me.”

* "I was the only person of color that I saw at an executive level in my entire year with the Trump Organization"

* Baltimore and Atlanta are "infested"

* telling US citizens of color "go back to your countries"

* wanting to swap Puerto Rico (again, US citizens he represents) for Greenland because it's a "dirty" island, "showed deep animus to its people"

* birther conspiracy

* agreeing with a supporter in a townhall who said "we have a problem in this country; it’s called Muslims.”

* Trump: How do you stop illegal border crossers? Supporter: "Shoot them!" Trump laughs enthusiastically

* lied about watching "thousands and thousands of Muslims" celebrating 9/11

* tried to ban all Muslims from entering the country

* tons of promoting racists (Laura Loomer, Jayda Dransen, Sebastian Gorka, Jeannine Pirro, Joe Arpaio, Unite the Right

* many actual racists call him a fellow racist (Christchurch shooter, El Paso shooter, Pittsburgh synagogue shooter)

I don't know what your definition of racism is, but I would love to hear how none of these incidents qualify.

Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#75

Post by jfengel »

supergeek133 wrote: post #36
humanrebar wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that the existing diversity in tech is best described as "white". Tech has a lot of diversity. It's that some groups, especially women, are still underrepresented.

Pick whatever gender and/or race you like. That's just the most commonly used example. My point is just as in there have been and are people that are willfully malicious and ONLY hire white men/women, it seems we have a hard time accepting there will be some willfully malicious enforcement of a policy such as "we need to make an effort to hire more outside of a gender or race group".

Indeed. It's very easy for people to say, "I'm sorry there's systemic discrimination against you, but it's your problem. Any solution that might affect me -- or somebody like me -- is discrimination against me, and that's unacceptable."

That doesn't make quotas the right solution. More creativity is required, and varies by situation. Which is why I always bristle at the outright rejection of calls for hiring a more diverse group of people without even pretending propose alternatives. Reinforcing the status quo means perpetuating the racism, sexism, etc.

Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#76

Post by dleslie »

throwaway_35345 wrote: post #73
dleslie wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is immoral about educating your children how to achieve the abilities you exhibit? Or am I misreading; what, specifically, do you think is immoral here? Perhaps I'm confused.

When you said > i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter. I thought you were expressing support for no longer hiring white men, which is what the thread was about? I think that's immoral.

I'm not OP, I was just curious what you thought was immoral about OP. ;)

I think it's immoral to prejudice individuals upon their immutable traits, like ethnicity, sexuality, gender and so on; so we're probably in agreement.

Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#77

Post by bahlhala »

dleslie wrote: post #66
bahlhala wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of it as we can see its not right just now and there are no other idea on the table. I may just be racist or sexist though.. however i dont know why i would give a shit if that was the case?

It's possible to be self-aware of one's own faults and want to change, but still exhibit the errant behaviour.

you are not explaining why i would care though?

and i have not seen a single alternative posted by anyone here, so all the argumnts against seem rather hollow and just self serving. blocking making playing field fairer as you wont be the one to benefit from the increased fairness.

I also think that people are missing the point that the entire work environment is tuned to a specific group of people.. which is not healthy.

that specific group of people are not going to actively de-tune their environment for potential future hires that they dont even have metrics to measure how tuned they are.

the only solution i can see is to get those other people in, see what need changing, change that.. wait a full generation and re-evaluate.

How do propose getting more diversity without some kind of support or appreciation of the value of the under represented? and to those thinking of themselves before the wider picture this will always seem "unfair".

If you were watching over some kids and you had not noticed but for an hour one kid had been bullying other kids to achieve a huge lead over them in the game they were playing. so you step and stop the bullying.. great. but where is the incentive for the other kids to keep playing together if the historical effects of the bullying are not addressed?

Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#78

Post by bahlhala »

raxxorrax wrote: post #69
bahlhala wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I find it kind of easier to get on with northern European white males.. because I am one and I hav elots in common with them.. Our parents did similar things, we eat similar foods, we grew up in similar houses.. I find it easier to predict their moods and behaviours etc.. cos they are like me. However, that doesn't mean to say we are in any way right or better than any one else. When i work with people who a…

See, if I travel to another culture, I don't expect it to change to my whims. I would think if they don't value their own culture, they probably wouldn't value mine either. I do actually work with many ethnicities and have come to the realization that they are all idiots. There are differences in representation between production and administration, but not because of bias or racism. > so really we have to go for imm…

>> so really we have to go for immersion therapy

>No thanks. You are free to travel though.

I am referring to large organisations having hiring policies that encourage or force more diverse hiring.. immersion in a more diverse workplace (but still representative of the area you live in)

>> if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT

>Honestly I think the situation got worse for women in the last 10 years. Through expectations placed upon them by others and themselves. Formerly it was a rarity but few really noticed it. Now their actions would be put under more scrutiny. Here bias does indeed play a role and some discussion emphasized that it apparently isn't normal for women to be in IT.

So its bad but we wont bother trying to do anything about it?

>> we just have to kind of force a more diverse group

>I fundamentally disagree that anybody needs to be forced. Freedom of association and that thing... Plus, that already happened countless times before and it will happen again.

You totally have the freedom not to work at IBM though? whats your problem, just find somewhere that doesn't have and diversity policies, is roaring sausage fest then dive right in and never look back!

its not like any of this really restricts white males, its just some companies saying that's not what they want so there is an extra value to hiring something other than a white male.

You cannot persecute those with huge advantages, that's not persecution that's more like regression to the mean. calling it persecution is kind of embarrassing imho. i'm a big boy i can handle that someone who is less skilled of experienced but has a different perspective could be a better investment for an organisation - after all its possible to gain skills and experience.

Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#79

Post by Wolfenstein98k »

robert_foss wrote: post #58
Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is pure fake news. You may not be intending to lie, but you're spreading them. "To remove all doubt, the President continued with “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally – but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay?”" https://www.scottadamssays.com/2019/04/30/the-fine-people-ho...

I have no particular desire to take another step into the garbage fire that is America and its politics, but calling something fake news does not make it so. https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/apr/26/context-trump...

Thank you, that article has the original transcript in full and shows that it is fake news - I quote directly from your link:

"And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly."

Re: 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes

#80

Post by raxxorrax »

bahlhala wrote: post #78
raxxorrax wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, if I travel to another culture, I don't expect it to change to my whims. I would think if they don't value their own culture, they probably wouldn't value mine either. I do actually work with many ethnicities and have come to the realization that they are all idiots. There are differences in representation between production and administration, but not because of bias or racism. > so really we have to go for imm…

>> so really we have to go for immersion therapy >No thanks. You are free to travel though. I am referring to large organisations having hiring policies that encourage or force more diverse hiring.. immersion in a more diverse workplace (but still representative of the area you live in) >> if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT >Honestly I think the situation got worse for women in the last 10 years. T…

You are free to step back from any job offering if you think you got unfair advantages but to expect it from others is where your elevated perspective falls short. On the other points we just need to disagree.
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