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The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#31

Post by kilgorewest »

stakkur wrote: post #11

I think it's fair to say that Kush has never been 'forgotten'--in fact, it's been heavily researched, documented, debated. This article title is a bit clickbait-y, and hinges on the current fad of 'Europeans are all racists and didn't acknowledge/appreciate a Black civilization', which is of course wrong.

>”the current fad of 'Europeans are all racists and didn't appreciate a Black civilization', which is of course wrong."

The leaders of European nations fed and feed their populations large amount of misinformation about who they are and who people outside their borders were. If a monarch was made in the image of and chosen by god, how could the greatest structures in human history not be in Europe? The solution was to whitewash as much as possible.

You see this in the restoration of art for the last few centuries, many brown/black pieces turned white all of sudden. Some claim this was unintentional, but if we look at how Africans have been treated for the past 500± years, that claim seems suspicious and sounds more like ass-covering when the fraud was revealed.

I expect this exposing of fraud to ramp up as automated translation allows us to compare notes between the great civilizations of human history in the near future.

Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#32

Post by AlotOfReading »

hogFeast wrote: post #27
AlotOfReading wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Sudan hasn't been totally ignored, but the 3 classical areas of Rome, Greece, and Egypt have gotten a very disproportionate share of work, with France and the Levant/near east as second fiddles. On that scale, I think it's fair to describe Sudan and other outlying areas (like the Caucasus) as effectively ignored. The article also isn't talking about "Europeans are racist and didn't appreciate black people". It's…

The work is in proportion to the amount of documents that are retained today. The reason why Rome and Greece are "popular" is they determined intellectual thought from the fall of the Western Rome until, probably, humanism (some one millennia later) so much of what they wrote down has been retained (or, more accurately, wasn't destroyed). As an example: we know Carthage was a huge civilisation...until Rome razed it s…

The work of archaeologists is absolutely not in proportion to the amount of surviving documents. Most of my digs have been in places and periods with few to no written records, for example.

As for the comment about Europeans, I was talking about modern academics (particularly of the early through late 20th century). The leading archaeologists of that period primarily came from European and American traditions. I have no idea what Augustine has to do with 20th century academia. Please feel free to enlighten me if there's a connection though.

Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#33

Post by 082349872349872 »

leptoniscool wrote: post #24

If the area was more prosperous today, it would have hired many historians and PR to spread its historical significance. Many European cities do this to increase tourism revenue.

I'm guessing it had been prosperous while it was in the middle of the trade route between egypt and punt, and that after some change (broken off trade, or just rerouted via the red sea to cut out the middle man?) lost that envious position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Punt

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23184621

Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#34

Post by monadic2 »

stakkur wrote: post #11

I think it's fair to say that Kush has never been 'forgotten'--in fact, it's been heavily researched, documented, debated. This article title is a bit clickbait-y, and hinges on the current fad of 'Europeans are all racists and didn't acknowledge/appreciate a Black civilization', which is of course wrong.

I mean they literally invented race to enslave entire groups of people. And it's hardly like Europe stopped interfering or exploiting even with the 21st century.

Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#35

Post by CBLT »

rsynnott wrote: post #19
stakkur wrote: post #11

I think it's fair to say that Kush has never been 'forgotten'--in fact, it's been heavily researched, documented, debated. This article title is a bit clickbait-y, and hinges on the current fad of 'Europeans are all racists and didn't acknowledge/appreciate a Black civilization', which is of course wrong.

Well, it's probably fair to say that it's been ignored by the general public, but then so have most really old civilisations; in the popular imagination, there was nothing except Greece, Rome and Egypt until this side of 1 AD. > hinges on the current fad of 'Europeans are all racists and didn't appreciate a Black civilization', which is of course wrong. ... eh, until last century it was fashionable to attribute it to…

> in the popular imagination, there was nothing except Greece, Rome and Egypt until this side of 1 AD.

Doesn't seem true to me; people seem aware of the Mayans and some of the stuff going on in Asia at the time (though generally not all).

Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#36

Post by karlp »

CrackpotGonzo wrote: post #23

"Be, be-fore we came to this country We were kings and queens, never porch monkeys There was empires in Africa called Kush Timbuktu, where every race came to get books To learn from black teachers who taught Greeks and Romans Asian Arabs and gave them gold, when Gold was converted to money it all changed Money then became empowerment for Europeans The Persian military invaded They heard about the gold, the teachings,…

It sounds really deep, but there doesn't seem to be any truth to it? Wikipedia mentions internal problems and conquest by a neighboring kingdom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush

I don't understand why make up stories when there are more than enough material with the colonial history.

Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#37

Post by renewiltord »

stakkur wrote: post #11

I think it's fair to say that Kush has never been 'forgotten'--in fact, it's been heavily researched, documented, debated. This article title is a bit clickbait-y, and hinges on the current fad of 'Europeans are all racists and didn't acknowledge/appreciate a Black civilization', which is of course wrong.

This comment undersells the article, imho, which is quite cool. I would have thought it’s some culture war overcorrection but it actually only has one reference to prejudice (about an Egyptologist from the early 1900s) and is mostly about how the Kush kingdoms were actually more than just some Egyptian colony.

Title is clickbaity though of you interpret it literally. Article does not answer “why” it was forgotten.

Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#38

Post by secondcoming »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #18
stakkur wrote: post #11

I think it's fair to say that Kush has never been 'forgotten'--in fact, it's been heavily researched, documented, debated. This article title is a bit clickbait-y, and hinges on the current fad of 'Europeans are all racists and didn't acknowledge/appreciate a Black civilization', which is of course wrong.

Yes, Sudan hasn't been totally ignored, but the 3 classical areas of Rome, Greece, and Egypt have gotten a very disproportionate share of work, with France and the Levant/near east as second fiddles. On that scale, I think it's fair to describe Sudan and other outlying areas (like the Caucasus) as effectively ignored. The article also isn't talking about "Europeans are racist and didn't appreciate black people". It's…

"Diffusionism refers to the diffusion or transmission of cultural characteristics or traits from the common society to all other societies."

Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#39

Post by elefanten »

monadic2 wrote: post #34
stakkur wrote: post #11

I think it's fair to say that Kush has never been 'forgotten'--in fact, it's been heavily researched, documented, debated. This article title is a bit clickbait-y, and hinges on the current fad of 'Europeans are all racists and didn't acknowledge/appreciate a Black civilization', which is of course wrong.

I mean they literally invented race to enslave entire groups of people. And it's hardly like Europe stopped interfering or exploiting even with the 21st century.

This is such an intellectually impoverished notion of racism. It's mired in 20th-century theory goo.

You can rest assured that racist reasoning ran rampant throughout world history long before someone coined the word "race" or before 18th/19th century political narratives used it in whatever particular ways.

Re: The Kush civilization flourished in Sudan nearly 5K years ago

#40

Post by haltingproblem »

CrackpotGonzo wrote: post #23

"Be, be-fore we came to this country We were kings and queens, never porch monkeys There was empires in Africa called Kush Timbuktu, where every race came to get books To learn from black teachers who taught Greeks and Romans Asian Arabs and gave them gold, when Gold was converted to money it all changed Money then became empowerment for Europeans The Persian military invaded They heard about the gold, the teachings,…

Nas was ahead of the times. I can't believe that these lyrics are from 2003. Always inspiring to hear them.

These lyrics bring home the point that so much of culture is historical narrative. I was reading Scale by Geoffrey West who is a particle physicist. Every 5-10 pages West brings up Plato/Aristotle. This was baffling to me till it dawned on that Greek history is the author's historical narrative, his cultural identity. Erase someone's history, erase their identity and you crush their progress. Give them a glorious past and they feel predestined to greatness. I believe good things will come from resurrecting the history of African Civilizations.

"Where is your history? How did the man wipe out your history?" - Malcolm X [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt6CA9VX4XY

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