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What harm do minimum wages do?

economist.com

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Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#751

Post by hajile »

dmitriid wrote: post #187
endtime wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To "live" at what standard of living? A smartphone? A recent one? What standard of medical care? What about entertainment? What if someone wants only to eat organic, fair trade food? When you pay for yourself, you're price sensitive and try to choose what makes sense for you. When you're not price sensitive, you run into a major incentive problem. If your life is funded by taxpayers, you have no reason not to argue t…

> To "live" at what standard of living? Decent. Roosevelt: """ In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I…

> All of it except cosmetic. A.k.a. universal healthcare.

I really wish people were more educated about this. In 2013, the US Government spent $4,981 PER PERSON (only $4,500 was privately funded per person) [1].

That is more government money per person than Sweden, Germany, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, etc (more than almost every first-world country).

The US has a pricing problem and a healthy-living problem. Almost 2/3 of all healthcare spending goes toward the obese 1/3 of the population [2].

Under 45, costs are less than 3k per person per year on average. The next 2 decades see prices soar to over double at almost 6.5k and over 65 they almost double again to 11.3k [3].

Why should I have to pay twice as much because someone else is overeating?

Put more interestingly, if obese people were denied government funds, the current amount of government spending at current prices would not only pay for EVERYONE, but would even have money left over (most likely gradually reaching equilibrium as those people lost weight to gain coverage).

[1] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-hea...

[2] https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.89.8....

[3] https://www.registerednursing.org/healthcare-costs-by-age/

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#752

Post by robk »

gjulianm wrote: post #4

> Textbooks state that, in the absence of a minimum wage, a worker is paid his “marginal product of labour”, which means the value of what he produces. > Just as a monopolist can set prices higher than would be the case in a competitive market, a monopsonist can set prices artificially lower. A lot of economic arguments forget these ideas. The labor market is not a free market: companies have more power in negotiatio…

Or governments - see the NHS as an example on low doctor pay

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#753

Post by dmitriid »

hajile wrote: post #751
dmitriid wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To "live" at what standard of living? Decent. Roosevelt: """ In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I…

> All of it except cosmetic. A.k.a. universal healthcare. I really wish people were more educated about this. In 2013, the US Government spent $4,981 PER PERSON (only $4,500 was privately funded per person) [1]. That is more government money per person than Sweden, Germany, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, etc (more than almost every first-world country). The US has a pricing problem and a healthy-living problem. Al…

> Why should I have to pay twice as much because someone else is overeating

Why do you pay for car insurance just because someone is driving recklessly? ;)

Also: as you correctly pointed out, the US spends more on healthcare than any other country. But people in those countries pay for obese people, too. And still...

Healthcare is a complex problem which should also include solutions for crazy amounts of sugar in American foods and drinks, better food in schools, better access to healthy foods for low-income families etc. etc.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#754

Post by magicnubs »

burfog wrote: post #511
frogpelt wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing poor kids usually don't have jobs at all. Only about 40% of poor people 18-64 even have jobs.

The minimum wage workers around here are of two types: 1. teenage children of the upper middle class or higher 2. poor adults with a history of bad decisions It's kind of a weird mix. Where are the children of the poor? You'd think they might want money much more than the children of better-off families do. Surgeons, business owners, passenger jet pilots, software developers, and corporate executives all send their t…

I'm not sure where you live, but my experience has been the complete opposite. When I was a poor working kid nearly every other poor kid I knew in high school started working at 16. Some of my friends from wealthy families did as well, but not nearly as many and usually only during the summer and not during the school year. Most did not have their first job (not including internships) until after college.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#755

Post by nickff »

klmadfejno wrote: post #743
nickff wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the job needs to be done does not mean that the job needs to be done by the type of person currently doing it . One common response to price floors is to change the qualifications/requirements (as in my wine example). The employer will hire 'over-qualified' candidates to perform a job which does not require their skills or abilities. Wine is still being 'hired' with a price floor, but it is a different…

People aren't wine. They do not have intrinsic prices. What you're saying just isn't correct. We've got plenty of people with mental handicaps working at grocery stores and what not, many of them making more than minimum wage. What you're describing is not real.

If you've ever worked at or hired for jobs between 1x and 2x the current minimum wage (in a given area), you know that the kind of people you can hire at 2x are totally different from the people you hire at 1x.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#756

Post by hajile »

dmitriid wrote: post #753
hajile wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of it except cosmetic. A.k.a. universal healthcare. I really wish people were more educated about this. In 2013, the US Government spent $4,981 PER PERSON (only $4,500 was privately funded per person) [1]. That is more government money per person than Sweden, Germany, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, etc (more than almost every first-world country). The US has a pricing problem and a healthy-living problem. Al…

> Why should I have to pay twice as much because someone else is overeating Why do you pay for car insurance just because someone is driving recklessly? ;) Also: as you correctly pointed out, the US spends more on healthcare than any other country. But people in those countries pay for obese people, too. And still... Healthcare is a complex problem which should also include solutions for crazy amounts of sugar in Ame…

> Why do you pay for car insurance just because someone is driving recklessly? ;)

I've paid much higher premiums than my sister simply because of my sex. If I get a speeding ticket, reckless driving, at-fault accident, or any number of things, my insurance will skyrocket enough to cover my added costs to the system (interesting, in my earlier years with my perfect record and despite my sister's many speeding tickets, I still wound up paying more for insurance for an equivalent vehicle).

EVERY insurance increases premiums for high-risk situations EXCEPT health insurance because reasons.

> But people in those countries pay for obese people, too. And still...

Obesity in the US happens at a much higher rate than other countries. My main point was that we are already super-socialized and the real issue lies elsewhere.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#757

Post by dmitriid »

hajile wrote: post #756
dmitriid wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I have to pay twice as much because someone else is overeating Why do you pay for car insurance just because someone is driving recklessly? ;) Also: as you correctly pointed out, the US spends more on healthcare than any other country. But people in those countries pay for obese people, too. And still... Healthcare is a complex problem which should also include solutions for crazy amounts of sugar in Ame…

> Why do you pay for car insurance just because someone is driving recklessly? ;) I've paid much higher premiums than my sister simply because of my sex. If I get a speeding ticket, reckless driving, at-fault accident, or any number of things, my insurance will skyrocket enough to cover my added costs to the system (interesting, in my earlier years with my perfect record and despite my sister's many speeding tickets,…

> EVERY insurance increases premiums for high-risk situations EXCEPT health insurance because reasons.

Of course, because reasons. Because health is a bit more complex than "you get a speeding ticket, you're a bad driver"

> My main point was that we are already super-socialized

You mean to say that the US already has super-socialized medical care? Erm, no. It's nowhere even close to being "super-socialized".

> and the real issue lies elsewhere.

Indeed. And I mentioned this in my comment:

Healthcare is a complex problem which should also include solutions for crazy amounts of sugar in American foods and drinks, better food in schools, better access to healthy foods for low-income families etc. etc.

Before punishing obese people the US should take quite a few steps towards helping people not become obese. Because even fast food is healthier in Europe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMaW6TamNAc

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#758

Post by dependenttypes »

frenchyatwork wrote: post #326
dependenttypes wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a pretty lonely Nowadays with the internet one does not need to be lonely even if they are away from society. In addition others might decide to follow them. > primitive existance in Siberia or Alaska. This does not make much sense. Why would living somewhere else automatically give them any duties? Anyway, I do not see the point of this argument. It is like saying to a gay person "if you don't want to be discrimin…

> Nowadays with the internet one does not need to be lonely even if they are away from society. How are you going to pay for the internet? If you want to operate with state currency, you need to abide by the rules of the state. Render unto Caesar ... Edit: I suppose you could try doing it with bitcoin. Best of luck if you try!

Guess we have to give up on trying to protect our freedoms. After all living alone is bad, right?

Time to forget all the issues regarding privacy too, after all in order to not be tracked by facebook we have to live in siberia.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#759

Post by jandrese »

imtringued wrote: post #684
jandrese wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where you lose me. The jobs still need to be done. Some companies might just fold up and die, but most would be just as happy passing on the higher costs to customers, and said good or service still needs to be produced so the companies that survive will take over for the ones that folded. Economists have this weird idea that all fast food would close because the people working there clearly aren't worth $15/…

The customers of McDonalds are other poor people. The margins are already slim. If you raise prices to cover the minimum wage those poor customers won't eat at McDonalds.

If you raise the minimum wage those poor people won't be as poor. And since the labor is only a fraction of the cost of the burger the poor people come out ahead. The danger is inflation, but honestly we're in bigger danger of deflation these days.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#760

Post by OCASM »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #633
OCASM wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people taking those low-wage jobs clearly prefer the existence of those businesses over nothing. Maybe you can help them by getting them food at lower prices. Just a thought.

Just because it is better than nothing doesn't mean that it is right. My point still stands: If you can't pay a living wage, don't have a business where you need to hire other people.

Or you could could have such a business and allow people to decide whether they want to work there or not.
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