Rideshare operations are being suspended in California • Hacker News Board

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#121

Post by spanhandler » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

savanaly wrote: post #61

milofeynman wrote: post #32

I don't know if you're genuine or not but the way you wrote this post sounds so utterly inauthentic[0]. You're whimsically sad you can't get more fun money to invest in stock, while the reason that ride sharing is being shut down is because it takes advantage of the lower class it depends on. [0]edit: unauthentic->inauthentic

>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I read the post before it had any responses and based on how it read to me then I'd say milofeynman's post is responding to the strongest plausible interpretation, as that's one of the HNest posts I've ever seen, which is really saying something as that's a field full of strong contenders.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#122

Post by pottertheotter » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

bgorman wrote: post #43

subdane wrote: post #31

Am I nuts, or is the heart of this issue really the fact that our healthcare system is built on tying benefits to full time jobs?

The heart of the issue is big labor unions want more power, and independent contractor status is a threat to their power.

Can you provide some sources on this? Would like to read about it.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#123

Post by MAGZine » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #51

setpatchaddress wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: what state government would you look to for a better model?

If you're asking for better run states, it looks like Texas is doing well but I'm unfamiliar with most other states to give you a good answer. As 20 year California resident, what I do know is that nothing has gotten better here over that time frame. Everything from infrastructure to taxes to city planning is much worse now than ever. CCPA is probably the only good outcome I can think of.

The state that scared uber and lyft off with background requirements, fingerprinting, and restricting bikelanes? I think maybe the grass is just greener.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#124

Post by rattray » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

milofeynman wrote: post #32

I don't know if you're genuine or not but the way you wrote this post sounds so utterly inauthentic[0]. You're whimsically sad you can't get more fun money to invest in stock, while the reason that ride sharing is being shut down is because it takes advantage of the lower class it depends on. [0]edit: unauthentic->inauthentic

There are generally two kinds of drivers on rideshare apps: full-time and "extra cash" drivers. Many of the latter are middle class, not lower class, and I've spoken with many who say similar things to OP.

I've also spoken with many full-time drivers in California, and none were in favor of AB5; they liked their independence, and preferred this work largely because they weren't employees. They did feel resentful of Lyft and especially Uber for reducing their earnings over time (ie "taking advantage of them"), but didn't seem to think AB5 would help wit that.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#125

Post by manigandham » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

chomp wrote: post #97

manigandham wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People freely working is not exploitation. Full time driving jobs already exist if you wanted that instead of freelance rideshare driving.

Yes people can freely work for Lyft/Uber, but they can't work free. As in, the designation "independent contractor" means they should have a lot more freedom in how they conduct their personal business than they do at the moment. Lyft/Uber keep their drivers on a leash while saying they're independent contractors. And that is exploitation.

I disagree with what you claim is a "leash". Have you ever driven for Uber? They have already made tweaks to give drivers more control over their fares and you always had control over when and where you work, along with which ride you accept.

More importantly these definitions are decades old and need updating for the modern era. The better solution would be to create a new classification between employee and freelance.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#126

Post by jayd16 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

meritt wrote: post #15

When Tesla/Waymo/Uber/Lyft roll out actual self-driving technology in the future and people complain "robots are taking our jobs!" we can point to this legislation and say "actually, no, it was the politicians"

If you had commodity full self driving, how could a human compete at almost any price point? You can run the car all day and night. Lack of this legislation didn't stop factory automation. I can't help but think this is a bad take.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#127

Post by LatteLazy » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

mqus wrote: post #62

> the rest would have scheduled shifts, and capped hourly earnings. I don't really understand why this is necessary. Can't there still be flexible arrangements with drivers simply clocking their work and then getting some kind of salary derived from that? Can't they still get paid bonuses for driving in particularly unwanted hours? Sure, this would be a complex contract, but I don't see how this is impossible. But I'…

No one would work when you wanted them to work unless you make them. Would you work a busy Friday night dealing with drunk people and missing your friends when you could get the same money for doing nothing on a Tuesday morning?

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#128

Post by beervirus » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

nafey wrote: post #53

Maybe some of the drivers can come together to create a driver owned ride sharing app. A good example of this is http://www.rideaustin.com/

I haven’t used that one since Uber and Lyft were briefly shut down in Austin. Didn’t realize it was still a thing.

How does it compare?

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#129

Post by rsweeney21 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

subdane wrote: post #31

Am I nuts, or is the heart of this issue really the fact that our healthcare system is built on tying benefits to full time jobs?

This is an interesting idea. Is this an unintended consequence of binding health insurance to your employment?

According to the NYT: "During World War II, federal wage controls prevented employers from wooing workers with higher pay, so companies started offering health insurance as a way around the law. Of course, this form of nonmonetary compensation is still pay. When the war ended, the practice stuck."

I would much rather have a system where I was paid more and got to choose my health insurance provider. That way I could keep my insurance when I change jobs or if I wanted to freelance.

I run a company that helps software engineers find contract work, and the #1 question we get is "how much should I charge?". The #2 question is "what do I do for health insurance?"

It would seem like businesses brought this on themselves by offering benefits to get around compensation limits imposed by the government. Or you could say that this was caused by the government imposing limits on compensation. Super interesting to think that the root cause of our current problem could have been created 80 years ago.

Re: Rideshare operations are being suspended in California

#130

Post by smallgovt » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

mqus wrote: post #62

> the rest would have scheduled shifts, and capped hourly earnings. I don't really understand why this is necessary. Can't there still be flexible arrangements with drivers simply clocking their work and then getting some kind of salary derived from that? Can't they still get paid bonuses for driving in particularly unwanted hours? Sure, this would be a complex contract, but I don't see how this is impossible. But I'…

Without scheduled shifts, drivers will purposefully all sign up for the same shift to induce supply overflow. In this situation, drivers can game the flexibility of the system to collect a paycheck while sitting in their cars doing nothing.

Even if drivers don't game the system, there will always be natural imbalance between supply and demand. Surge bonuses can mitigate this imbalance, but scheduling shifts is the more economically efficient way to solve the imbalance problem (hence why they say schedule flexibility will no longer be a feature in a driver employment model).