Notes from a Flat Earth Conference • Hacker News Board

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#101

Post by lisper » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

erdos4d wrote: post #87

lisper wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have completely missed the point. Their argument is logical. It just starts from a different foundational assumption.

In math we have an proof technique called reductio ad absurdum that deals with this situation. They seem to be doing it wrong though, because they don't reject the faulty hypothesis after the conclusion is logically inconsistent with reality.

I can apply the same argument to science: all of the laws of physics are symmetric with respect to time and space. But all of the data I have direct access to comes to me from a privileged frame of reference that I call "here and now". Therefore, all of this data is in direct conflict with physics, and so physics must be wrong.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#102

Post by Covzire » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

mcculley wrote: post #81

Covzire wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt you, but neither of those ideas are empirical in nature and not what I was referring to.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you. What good is empiricism if you will reject evidence that conflicts with your beliefs?

This isn't my field so forgive me if this is a little confusing, but consider the big bang's origin. We have empirical data that suggests that the universe is expanding. To be clear, the interpretation of the data is that it's expanding, but it's non-controversial since virtually everyone accepts that almost all galaxies are moving away from each other. It's also not controversial to suggest the idea to creationists that everything could have come from one point, and that point expanded in all 3 dimentions (time, space) then matter.

The belief on the creationist side is that this original event must have a cause, because everything else in the universe that we can empirically study obeys that principle.

The belief on the atheist side, for lack of a better label, is that the universe was/got created out of nothing. It must be possible for it to occur without God, in the purest sense of the word atheist.

But whether God created it or it created itself, there are only interpretations and no direct empirical evidence.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#103

Post by burlesona » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

erdos4d wrote: post #59

lisper wrote: post #17

I've been spending quite a bit of time interacting with the young-earth creationist community on Reddit and YouTube. It is closely related to flat-earth, though there is one significant difference: YEC is overtly religious, and specifically Christian. Other than that many of the forms of argument are the same. From that experience I have made two observations: 1. These people are not idiots (at least the YECs aren't,…

I just don't get this at all. Could you explain how they refute things like ISS camera footage showing a clearly round earth with the station going around it? Are you saying that they just refute science outright because it conflicts with their teleology beliefs? If that is the case, they actually are idiots, regardless of how erudite their arguments may be.

Young Earth Creationism isn’t the same as Flat Earth.

An argument I’ve heard before is that God made the universe relatively recently (10k years ago or so) but with the appearance of age. Something like God “fast forwarded” through time to skip to the part where humans started recording history. In that theory both the majority of modern science and a strangely literal interpretation of the Bible can both be true at the same time. The scientists are unable to measure that God “fast-forwarded” the universe because he didn’t leave any evidence of it.

In my experience the majority of Christians don’t hold that view, but instead see Genesis as metaphorical, and thus it actually fits in rather well with the current Big Bang model. So well, in fact, that early on a lot of scientists rejected the Big Bang as “creationist rubbish.”

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#104

Post by trumpersHateMe » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

RobRivera wrote: post #16

BrianOnHN wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure this won't be a popular comment, but based on the descriptions in the article, the flat earthers seem very similar to the Trump supporters I know (family, not by choice). The clear distinction is the absolute unwillingness to listen logic without screaming what-a-about conspiracy A, or conspiracy B, or C. Or the classic "your just a socialist" inbetween talking about their social security and medicare benefi…

>Trump supporters I know (family, not by choice) What is the implication here? Is it bad to have friends who are Trump supporters? EDIT: I see my point of political bias proven, complete with intolerance, rationalization of said intolerance, gross assumptions, and overall it leaves me disappointed that the HN crowd allows this.

> EDIT: I see my point of political bias proven, complete with intolerance, rationalization of said intolerance, gross assumptions, and overall it leaves me disappointed that the HN crowd allows this

I would expect such a strong statement like this to be better explained.

What has confirmed what? What is the logic behind your conclusion? Please share.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#105

Post by trumpersHateMe » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

sunopener wrote: post #93

ideals wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I judge people (not solely) based on who they choose to associate with, so for me ya it is bad. To put it more bluntly, if you surround yourself with shitty people, I'll assume you're a shitty person.

You surround yourself with 7.8 billion people who shit nearly every day. To put it bluntly, you are judging yourself when you take yourself to be judging others, you claim an excuse that associating with others leads to your own self-admitted "badness"... You judge yourself, and rather than taking sentence with those aspects within, you externalize it and make assumptions based upon comparisons of your ideal shitty p…

Does this reply have any coherence at all or is it just me?

It reads very similar to a response I received from the owners of a fishing website that I used to frequent when I questioned them about BLM.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#106

Post by scottlocklin » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #5

Sadly, this is another topic of questions to add to job interview filters - ask about the moon landings & vaccines. Anyone subscribing to any of this conspiracy nonsense, especially as an identity is (pardon the language) too effin stupid to work in any serious technical endeavor - if they're deeply willing to ignore those facts & reason, what will they ignore on your project? Plus, their deeply ingrained ideas that…

> I'd even filter them out for manufacturing or fast food work.

Barking insanity. You've just suggested sending people with completely harmless beliefs to the gulag. Either that or starving them to death; feel free to clarify how you expect these people to live. What would you consider appropriate treatment for people with what you consider actively "harmful" beliefs? Pull their fingernails out until they agree?

Intolerant assholes who would cashier harmless nincompoop flat earthers are the ones who should be unhirable outside of shoveling holes in the ground and scrubbing pots and pans: nobody wants a tin pot fascist in a management chain -for liability reasons if nothing else. This level of intolerance for nonconforming beliefs would have suggested burning Giordano Bruno or Galileo at the stake for their heresies in a different era, for precisely the same "reasons."

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#107

Post by me_me_me » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

Brendinooo wrote: post #57

umvi wrote: post #22

I used to be a flat earther. No, I didn't actually believe the earth was flat, but I loved the outrage it provoked and the attention I got when I told people I was a flat earther. I also enjoyed trying to defend my position and call out (valid) logical fallacies round earthers were making. It really forces you to improve your debate skills when you have to defend an impossible position. Lastly, there was a social asp…

My headcanon is that most people that proclaim to be flat-earthers are like you - they don't actually believe it. From the Ancient Greeks to the 19th century, people believed the world was round. That story you heard in history class about how people in the 1400s were afraid to sail west because they'd fall off? Not true. They were afraid to sail west because they didn't know that the Americas existed, and without th…

I wouldn't be so sure, more likely people who make money of it are all BS masters.

Leader of the 'movement' selling books, youtube ads etc.

I had only once a pleasure to talk with flat earther, and apart from his flat theories, his view of how world works could be called... interesting, if not naive.

It reminded me of conversation with my primary school friends (back when we were 10), we tried to invent invisibility cloak by mixing 'chemicals' like sulpher, mercury and melted titanium (since those were the coolest substances we come up with) and coat a cloth with it. Kids stuff.

That was when we were around 10, this guy was close to 30 and was basically using same level of understanding of how to do things.

Its hard to believe sometimes bu a lot of people grow up never questioning or poking at the reality surrounding them.

You don't need that to grow up and get by in life, but then you end up not being able to distinguish reality from snake oil.

And all of those snake oil salesmen know exactly what buttons to push.

"Secret knowledge", "hidden truth", offer them glimpse into world that secret cabal never wants them to see. Convince them how much smarter and cleverer they are for "figuring out" the reality that other are blind to.

And then the 'blind fools' come to try to convince them that the earth is round...

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#108

Post by lisper » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #61

lisper wrote: post #17

I've been spending quite a bit of time interacting with the young-earth creationist community on Reddit and YouTube. It is closely related to flat-earth, though there is one significant difference: YEC is overtly religious, and specifically Christian. Other than that many of the forms of argument are the same. From that experience I have made two observations: 1. These people are not idiots (at least the YECs aren't,…

Inerrancy is a whole other bag of chips. I teach a Sunday School class and one of my big topics is man made rules that aren’t Biblically supported. Inerrancy falls in that camp from my reading. There’s a single verse that the basis for the entire doctrine. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be…

The problem seems to me more fundamental than that: if the Bible potentially contains errors then you need some process or mechanism to figure out what those errors are if you're going to use the Bible as a guide to action. What could that process or mechanism possibly be? It obviously can't be the Bible.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#109

Post by shadowgovt » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #89

shadowgovt wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you live in a place where being allowed to work by other people is a prerequisite for living, I suggest doing something about your barbaric local culture.

I'm not sure I get your point, if there is a point or if you're trying to be sarcastic, could you elaborate ?

You appear to have equated depriving somebody of employment opportunities with disallowing them from living, and the opportunity to be employed somewhere with basic rights.

In general, the two are not the same. And if they are in a given society, in this age, that society is in need of help. Nobody in a modern, healthy society with ample resources should have to work to be allowed to live.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#110

Post by lisper » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #24

lisper wrote: post #17

I've been spending quite a bit of time interacting with the young-earth creationist community on Reddit and YouTube. It is closely related to flat-earth, though there is one significant difference: YEC is overtly religious, and specifically Christian. Other than that many of the forms of argument are the same. From that experience I have made two observations: 1. These people are not idiots (at least the YECs aren't,…

It’s still not a good explanation to say “humans must have some purpose, therefore this one very specific made-up thing must be true.” What about all the other made-up things which also purport to explain the purpose of humans? Explanations of this form are extremely easy to vary, which is why they are not good explanations.

But that only matters if you think that explanations are what matters. That is an assumption. That's the whole point: some people value purpose more than they value explanation.