Notes from a Flat Earth Conference • Hacker News Board

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#41

Post by lisper » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

cma wrote: post #30

lisper wrote: post #17

I've been spending quite a bit of time interacting with the young-earth creationist community on Reddit and YouTube. It is closely related to flat-earth, though there is one significant difference: YEC is overtly religious, and specifically Christian. Other than that many of the forms of argument are the same. From that experience I have made two observations: 1. These people are not idiots (at least the YECs aren't,…

Why would some point of existence or meaning lead specifically to Christianity?

That is a very good question, and the answer is very long, much too long for an HN comment. But there IS an answer. (There is of course an answer for all other religions as well.)

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#42

Post by rustybelt » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #5

Sadly, this is another topic of questions to add to job interview filters - ask about the moon landings & vaccines. Anyone subscribing to any of this conspiracy nonsense, especially as an identity is (pardon the language) too effin stupid to work in any serious technical endeavor - if they're deeply willing to ignore those facts & reason, what will they ignore on your project? Plus, their deeply ingrained ideas that…

I'm sure these types of policies would never be used against you and your beliefs.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#43

Post by Folcon » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #17

I've been spending quite a bit of time interacting with the young-earth creationist community on Reddit and YouTube. It is closely related to flat-earth, though there is one significant difference: YEC is overtly religious, and specifically Christian. Other than that many of the forms of argument are the same. From that experience I have made two observations: 1. These people are not idiots (at least the YECs aren't,…

So the appropriate argument is to ask why we shouldn't be sun worshipers instead?

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#44

Post by DjiboutiJon » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #17

I've been spending quite a bit of time interacting with the young-earth creationist community on Reddit and YouTube. It is closely related to flat-earth, though there is one significant difference: YEC is overtly religious, and specifically Christian. Other than that many of the forms of argument are the same. From that experience I have made two observations: 1. These people are not idiots (at least the YECs aren't,…

You put into very readable language what I have felt to be true for some time.

What I appreciate about your comment also is you mention the necessity to understand their presuppositions and reason that way (at least sometimes). I feel like the issue with many discourses going on right now is a lack of good faith understanding of the other "sides" presuppositions.

And yet, it can be so painful for someone to even pretend they can identify with the following belief for example this belief

> So if science leads you to the conclusion that life has no transcendent purpose (and it does) then, on their world-view, science must be wrong, full stop

The much easier tact for lets say a standard pro-science metropolitan is to decide the YEC-er person actually knows what is "true" (e.g. what the metropolitan thinks is obvious) but is actively choosing to do wrong. Then you can refute their point as purposely provoking _and_ also put them in the "bad people" box with one little mental facade.

I'm not trying to build a purposely weak example of either group, I think all humans have a simplifying mechanism when it comes to viewpoints/ideas and that we need that to survive in some sense- and that we do it all the time probably in benign ways. But acknowledging what other people believe is a great skill to build I think.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#45

Post by lisper » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

kmnc wrote: post #35

lisper wrote: post #17

I've been spending quite a bit of time interacting with the young-earth creationist community on Reddit and YouTube. It is closely related to flat-earth, though there is one significant difference: YEC is overtly religious, and specifically Christian. Other than that many of the forms of argument are the same. From that experience I have made two observations: 1. These people are not idiots (at least the YECs aren't,…

So, they are idiots. If no logic can change their minds then isn’t dismissing them as idiots the best course of action?

You have completely missed the point. Their argument is logical. It just starts from a different foundational assumption.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#46

Post by mcculley » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

Covzire wrote: post #21

dstick wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With religion ymmv. A lot of people do not believe in some super-being, but do believe in belief and the benefits it brings them. A feeling of happiness, a social group to belong to, and a way of coping with the bigger philosophical questions around death and the meaning of life. Religion is too broad a term to sweep everyone under. It’s very diverse. Now creationists, who believe the world is 5.000 years old - yeah,…

To your first point, even creationists believe in empirical science and I doubt you'll find any meaningful disagreement between a die hard creationist and an evolutionary biologist on the empirical data. The line between empirical and circumstantial or interpretive evidence is often very blurry, however.

My 3rd though 6th grade education was at a private Christian school. We were explicitly taught that the Earth is ~6,000 years old and that fossils are a test of faith in that belief. Fundamentalist creationists exist.

https://enki.org/2018/07/30/things-i-learned-in-elementary-s...

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#47

Post by Spellman » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #17

I've been spending quite a bit of time interacting with the young-earth creationist community on Reddit and YouTube. It is closely related to flat-earth, though there is one significant difference: YEC is overtly religious, and specifically Christian. Other than that many of the forms of argument are the same. From that experience I have made two observations: 1. These people are not idiots (at least the YECs aren't,…

This gets to one of the big issues.

A lot of these beliefs arise from very fundamental axioms of belief that only show up through these high-order belief systems.

If you fundamentally believe you should follow the evidence no matter what and THAT is the highest priority of your belief, then you are (more likely) going to fall into the camps of hard science and nothing but the science.

Or perhaps in a different vein, do you fundamentally believe you are a good person fighting evil? Then anyone who disagrees is THE ENEMY and must be DESTROYED. And not only are they doing bad things, but they are fundamentally BAD PEOPLE. They're not just baby killers, they're Satanic Baby Killers.

Of course, we are all a vibrant mix of these beliefs, and some may change over time with enough exposure. And many often hold beliefs counter to other base axioms and a careful walk may help expose and nudge their higher-order beliefs. But recognizing that it isn't just about Evolution or just about the world being flat, it's actually built on layers and layers of logic from very low-fundamental beliefs is key.

Because even if you prune some of the top facts, the base layers will remain, and they'll adapt to stay aligned with their core beliefs.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#48

Post by rgoulter » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

BrianOnHN wrote: post #14

firebaze wrote: post #2

Depressing.

I'm sure this won't be a popular comment, but based on the descriptions in the article, the flat earthers seem very similar to the Trump supporters I know (family, not by choice). The clear distinction is the absolute unwillingness to listen logic without screaming what-a-about conspiracy A, or conspiracy B, or C. Or the classic "your just a socialist" inbetween talking about their social security and medicare benefi…

> But I'm starting to think this inability to control their emotional response when hearing anything that conflicts with their "belief system" is the hack that various organizations leverage to build a cult-like following.

Jonathan Haidt describes this as "morality binds and blinds". The full quote being:

"Morality binds and blinds. It binds us into ideological teams that fight each other as though the fate of the world depended on our side winning each battle. It blinds us to the fact that each team is composed of good people who have something important to say."

I also like Haidt's interpretation of Hume's "reason is a slave to the passions". Haidt descibes logical thinking as like a press secretary of emotion; with as much power over emotion as a rider has over an elephant. - The elephant goes where it wants to.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#49

Post by Jtsummers » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

Humdeee wrote: post #37

umvi wrote: post #22

I used to be a flat earther. No, I didn't actually believe the earth was flat, but I loved the outrage it provoked and the attention I got when I told people I was a flat earther. I also enjoyed trying to defend my position and call out (valid) logical fallacies round earthers were making. It really forces you to improve your debate skills when you have to defend an impossible position. Lastly, there was a social asp…

To summarize, would you say you were a great troll? I apologize if I interpreted it that way...

Why apologize? They literally said they came to it for the outrage it caused. That's pretty much the definition of a troll.

Re: Notes from a Flat Earth Conference

#50

Post by shadowgovt » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 3:59 PM UTC

Honestly, hanging out in the Flat Earth FB group was extremely educational. In that actual physics and cosmology has a very solid, self-consistent grounding, and the hoops the group has to jump through to make it match to their alternate theory of a flat Earth are illuminating about how the real Earth works.

I'd never really noticed before that no satellite dishes tuned to talk to geostationary targets point north in the northern hemisphere, or south in the southern hemisphere. A bit of thought immediately clarifies why, but the flat-Earthers have to imagine an incredibly large conspiracy of governments hiding radio towers taller than anything humanity has ever built to explain it.