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Can't you just right click?

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Re: Can't you just right click?

#651

Post by ubermonkey »

manquer wrote: post #616
ubermonkey wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is a lifestyle brand now, people money because it is Apple, not because there is real value they gain for the higher cost. People who do not see the value love to say this, but it doesn't make it true.

for more than 10 years I loved using Apple . My first introduction to Apple came during the G5 times in edit studios with Final Cut Pro I would rent those on hourly rate even when it was 30-35% costlier than Avid and premier pro . The project always ended cheaper because Apple was that good . My first computer was Apple the Airs were a great product , I loved the MagSafe port I loved the build quality when they move…

So you're fine with a less polished / higher maintenance desktop OS.

Not everyone is. I have absolutely no interest in going to an environment where I can't run native Office, or a decent mail client, etc. And I have less interest in putting up with the garbage fire that is Windows.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#652

Post by quanticle »

adriancr wrote: post #637
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least with Linux once I configure it right it works without issue and does everything I want. Until an update breaks it because some asshole decided to break an ABI, or swap out a fundamental system component with a different one, etc. So I guess what you're saying is true so long as you never update anything.

Do you have concrete experience for that? I have only 3 things I hit: - NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. - Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. - Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expect…

Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either...

Why not? I've upgraded a few Windows machines from 7 to 10, and the upgrade has gone just fine, assuming there's enough disk space for the OS to store the upgrade files before it starts the upgrade. Similarly, I've upgraded Linux boxes (both Ubuntu and Fedora) across major versions. MacOS as well.

I don't know where you're getting this notion that an OS upgrade is a scary thing to do. In my experience, it's been a routine, if somewhat long process.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#653

Post by adriancr »

quanticle wrote: post #652
adriancr wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have concrete experience for that? I have only 3 things I hit: - NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. - Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. - Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expect…

Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expected, I wouldn't upgrade windows 7 to 10 either... Why not? I've upgraded a few Windows machines from 7 to 10, and the upgrade has gone just fine, assuming there's enough disk space for the OS to store the upgrade files before it starts the upgrade. Similarly, I've upgraded Linux boxes (both Ubuntu and Fedora) across major versions. MacOS…

parents messed that up (clicked accept by mistake to a microsoft upgrade pop up when that was a thing), system no longer booted and had to reinstall...

Also, I'm old, maybe things have improved but I've had upgrades wipe my hard drive due to centos anaconda bug once (centos 5 to 6) other times it just did not boot (yay using encrypted boot partition but thats on me and updating grub fixes it)

Added benefit is it also forces me to check/update backups

Re: Can't you just right click?

#654

Post by ArtDev »

csomar wrote: post #530
cwhiz wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is a lifestyle brand now, people money because it is Apple, not because there is real value they gain for the higher cost. Oh come now, there are millions and millions of professionals using macOS to do work every single day. This is basically a slippery slope fallacy. Today they're making it marginally hard, what might they do tomorrow?!? There are many reasons to prefer macOS to Linux or Windows. The Apple ecos…

Nobody can deny that macOS has the most integrated system especially if you own an iPhone/iPad/iWatch. However, for development, it's going to depend. Excluding iOS/macOS development, the macOS is becoming less and less attractive even for web developers.

Running Docker on Linux is absurdly faster than on a Mac or Windows. My experience was comparing a company-purchased $3500 new MBP with an old Windows gaming laptop running Linux Mint. On top of that, my old laptop originally cost 1/3 of the price of the Macbook Plus And didn't require a overloaded dongle because it actually has USB and HDMI ports.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#655

Post by _qulr »

Marcus10110 wrote: post #277

I deal with this every day, because we only notarize our electron app in CI if we're building the master branch or an RC branch. I don't see it mentioned in the article, but what gets me every time is that the "right-click" trick only works the second time you try to launch the app. The first time, right-click or not, MacOS won't let you launch the app. I do wish Apple had a free tier for open source projects, just l…

> I don't see it mentioned in the article, but what gets me every time is that the "right-click" trick only works the second time you try to launch the app. The first time, right-click or not, MacOS won't let you launch the app.

Thanks for the comment! I've referenced this in a new addendum to the article.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#656

Post by rglullis »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #648
adriancr wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have concrete experience for that? I have only 3 things I hit: - NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. - Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained. That's fixed via docker or just keeping an old version. - Major version upgrades (ubuntu 18 to 20) - here I just re-install and it's expect…

> Do you have concrete experience for that? Yes. > NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. This is a legitimate dispute and I'm not really counting it because as much as I think Linux should have a stable driver ABI, NVidia are being needlessly obtuse. > Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained…

> why would they ever recommend it to anyone?

It is not a matter of recommending Linux or *BSD or anything else. It is just a matter of refusing to give in to closed software on the grounds of "convenience".

I don't go around telling people what type of software they should use, but I do expect technical people and the common developer to understand what a terrible trade-off they are making when they choose proprietary desktop. I feel hard to sympathize with those that complain about the abuse and developer hostility from Apple. They sold their souls to the devil for cheap and are now trying to bargain their way out of it?

Re: Can't you just right click?

#657

Post by jerluc »

ArtDev wrote: post #654
csomar wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody can deny that macOS has the most integrated system especially if you own an iPhone/iPad/iWatch. However, for development, it's going to depend. Excluding iOS/macOS development, the macOS is becoming less and less attractive even for web developers.

Running Docker on Linux is absurdly faster than on a Mac or Windows. My experience was comparing a company-purchased $3500 new MBP with an old Windows gaming laptop running Linux Mint. On top of that, my old laptop originally cost 1/3 of the price of the Macbook Plus And didn't require a overloaded dongle because it actually has USB and HDMI ports.

Just a note about Docker performance on Linux vs. others: this is likely because Docker on Linux runs without virtualization as more or less a normal subprocess in a separate cgroups namespace. Windows and macOS must use a virtualization layer (e.g. VirtualBox) to run any Docker process, which for obvious reasons is going to be much less performant.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#658

Post by hrktb »

ubermonkey wrote: post #592
hrktb wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll switch to another platform What makes me sad is there is nowhere to switch to seamlessly. The writing has been on the wall since gatekeeper was introduced, but we stayed because there is just no better option. Some options are viable, but require sacrificing a decent chunk of the comfort we have now. It's the eternal waiting for the "year of desktop linux" except we moved the goalpost to laptop linux, battery…

I still really don't understand why people get SO ANGRY about Gatekeeper. It's an excellent idea! Enforcing signed binaries by default is the correction option on a consumer OS. It's saved many, many folks many, many hours of hassle in fixing Aunt Millie's computer at Thanksgiving. And people like you and me can turn it off. It's not at all clear that Apple will remove the ability to run unsigned binaries. As of now,…

Most people (me included) are ok on the principle, and I actually don’t disable it. I want more security.

Issues are on the implementation, with for instance the network calls on every command run if for any reason the CLI is not whitelisted.

Also I am not against iOS either, I just need an alternative for the tools that don’t fit the model, and that role is currently filled by macos. The more macos is iOSified, the less it fills that role.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#659

Post by simonh »

_qulr wrote: post #553
simonh wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Near monopoly power. We are talking about Macs still, right? Oh I'm against this latest erosion of the ability to run whatever code you want on a Mac. This is one of the reasons I just got one of the new Intel iMacs, because I can see this coming on the ARM side. It's their product though, they legitimately get a monopoly on what features it has, and I don't have any right to tell them how to design it. That's histri…

> Near monopoly power. We are talking about Macs still, right? The problem is that there's only one Apple Developer Program for both iOS and macOS. If you get kicked out of the developer program for reasons related to the iOS App Store, you're also kicked out of independent Mac distribution outside the App Store. You no longer have true independence on the Mac either.

Well, you're using someone else's products (dev tools, compilers, OS libraries) you buy and license from them under certain commercial terms. If you don't like the terms, don't buy them.

And to be crystal clear, that's the approach I am personally going to take. I carved off a TB partition and installed Windows 10 and WSL 2 on my new iMac and it runs like a dream. I still need MacOS, and I'll be installing Virtualbox for some stuff. If the Mac gets to the point where I can't run all the applications and tools I need, I'll miss the hardware and the OS and some apps, but I'll jump ship. I hope they listen to us, but I intend to ask and argue, not tell or coerce through legal action.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#660

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

rglullis wrote: post #656
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have concrete experience for that? Yes. > NVIDIA driver updates (or kernel updates while using nvidia) - caused black screen... I dumped nvidia... these are due to crappy nvidia. This is a legitimate dispute and I'm not really counting it because as much as I think Linux should have a stable driver ABI, NVidia are being needlessly obtuse. > Ubuntu deciding to remove old libraries/apps that are not maintained…

> why would they ever recommend it to anyone? It is not a matter of recommending Linux or *BSD or anything else. It is just a matter of refusing to give in to closed software on the grounds of "convenience". I don't go around telling people what type of software they should use, but I do expect technical people and the common developer to understand what a terrible trade-off they are making when they choose proprieta…

Maybe you could give them the benefit of the doubt that they know exactly the trade-off they were making, and perhaps even wish they didn't have to go the route they did, but the alternative just isn't there yet?
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