Can't you just right click? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can't you just right click?

#621

Post by cesarb » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:01 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #406

diminish wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as an ex-apple employee and long time developer, glad people start to see apple is an open source foo creating prisons of software to lure the obsessive brand fanatics and get a fee selling them as users to the other parties. - in apple tech, the users are volunteer products where servicing them gets a myriad of monetization, notarization etc. - hope open source starts to ignore apple platforms as a target at some po…

I would never develop against an OS like that. Far too many security risks. MacOS still has The level of rationalization of these lock in practices is just sad to be honest, fully neglecting how software becomes more accessible. Even signed apps have been victims of malware attacks and I do think the check is primarily to ensure the developer has paid their Apple tax. It isn't that high, but I don't think I want to s…

> I do think the check is primarily to ensure the developer has paid their Apple tax

I think the true reason for the check is not money, but control. They want to control what software runs on "their" platform. For historical reasons, they don't have that control on desktops/laptops yet (but they already have it on phones).

Re: Can't you just right click?

#622

Post by zaarn » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:03 PM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #619

zaarn wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Krita is an unpolished usability nightmare compared to commercial counterparts? Why does a project like Krita have to pay apple tax? Why does it even matter if it's a usability nightmare if the user wants it they should be able to install it if it's open source.

I've never used Krita, it looks nice though and I like seeing well polished OSS, but a specific example says nothing about the general trend. > Why does it even matter if it's a usability nightmare if the user wants it they should be able to install it if it's open source Sure. And users are able to install it... it's just a little hidden. My point is if you can't even figure that out then you probably can't figure o…

There is plenty more OSS software that has polished and usable UI design. Possibly software you'd not think of as OSS to begin with.

Being so dismissive of the user's wants is just Apple fanboyism.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#623

Post by Andrex » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:04 PM UTC

40four wrote: post #348

Man, I really love my Macbook pro. Such a nice piece of hardware, and the OS is a joy to use. But the more and more I learn about about their business practices, the more I wonder if they are really in line with my own values, and the more I think about how much benefit I really gain from the OS. Probably not as much as I used to think. I'm starting to realize something. I'm almost certain I would be just as happy wi…

I cannot recommend elementary OS enough, especially for those coming from macOS.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#624

Post by teddyh » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

andyzweb wrote: post #509

tialaramex wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the offer is open to any person . This is so that other people with copies of the program can fulfil their obligation by passing on the offer too. So maybe you make one GPL program specifically for Bill, you give it to Bill, and you write Bill the offer, never expecting him to care about the source code. Six months later a teenager from a country you didn't know existed sends you an email - and the teenager wou…

I believe the offer is for anyone you’ve distributed the program to. So if it was Bill who shared a copy of the program with the random teenager it would fall upon Bill to provide him with the source and not you.

The offer only has to be given to Bill, but the offer must be valid for anyone, including anyone Bill passes it on to.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#625

Post by ho_schi » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

Apple doesn't provide a good documentation and tools about manually creating Apple Bundles, Signing, Notarization and Stapling. When you cannot use XCode or don't want use XCode you're in the Apple Hell.

I've ported an already running and shipped desktop application from Linux and Windows to Mac. First and foremost you save some time with the network stuff because there is still some POSIX in MacOS and you got a usable shell also.

We cannot use reliable XCode, because it doesn't support Meson or anything else outside of Apples own world reliable. Compiling code with 'homebrew' works, yes.

Creating the App Bundle itself is the first big burden, because outside of XCode you have to create them fully manually and using 'otool' to adjust every library path which is used internally. Even the icons hurt you, you cannot provide one big PNG or SVG (Linux) or melt it into the executable (Windows), but a icon for every size someone can imagine. ImageMagick is your friend. What year is it? 1995?

Because we cannot use XCode and have to build stuff repeatable, we also stick with 'codesign'. Which is horrible to use, because it's recursive option is not reliable and you have to sign nearly every bit in an App Bundle. On Windows you sign the executable or the howl installer, here you sign nearly everything.

But watch out. The certificates included by default in your Apple Account are likely all false friends. There badly name and desribed and you cannot see that you don't get the needed type of certificate as non account owner. So be careful with company accounts! Always ensure that multiple people have permanent access to this as owners and can immediately accept the new terms - or you cannot ship anything anymore. Happened this spring/summer to me :(

Signing done? Fine. Now hope that your 3rd party code doesn't show nasty bugs after signing, like the code from our partner. Furthermore don't expect that MacOS tell you via console what is going wrong and what you need. But itt could maybe help a little.

Then uploading for "notarization" follows. I hope you didn't make something bad and placed the right file in the wrong directory of the bundle or it is declined.

Finally attach (staple) the notarization to your bundle! Or every Mac there will ask the Apple Servers if it is "okay to execute this code now". Without it privacy is lost. And the startup is slowed down also.

If your going to support MacOS, don't assume that portable code is portable. The shipping is actually the hard part.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#626

Post by josephg » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

badsectoracula wrote: post #607

josephg wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it does! We just need sufficiently granular permissions for all of this stuff. “Do you want to give ClipboardManager access to your clipboard?” Yes. “Do you want to give TikTok access to your clipboard?” No. I agree that clicking a million permission boxes is annoying but ideally it should only be something needed for apps that don’t fit the media consumption model. The real problem is that the desktop security…

> The real problem is that the desktop security model is outdated - it was designed for a world where software developers are trusted by default and users need to protect their data from each other. Today we can’t trust that developers will respect my data. Why is it any different today? You can always only install applications you trust. It would be useful to have sandboxing for untrusted applications (especially wh…

The UNIX permission system was designed when computers cost millions, they had lots of users through timesharing (many of whom were programmers themselves). And computers had comparatively little software. And most of the software that was on the computers was installed by the system operators; who could be trusted to not install software from disreputable developers. The threat model was malicious users accessing each other's files; so user accounts with limited permissions kept us safe.

Today I have several computers. Each computer only has 1 user. And yet my /etc/passwd file still has 110 entries somehow. And it doesn't really help - the thing I need to protect the most on my computer is my data, and most programs on my computer could read and modify all my data with impunity if they wanted to. The permission model nothing to protect my own files from the programs I run.

Using tools like homebrew I install new software very frequently, and I don't have time to vet the code I run. There is a staggering number of software developers who have contributed code that runs on my computer. Some of them work at companies in direct competition with each other. Some of those companies I don't really trust. (Hi Facebook). So I rely on sandboxing in the browser and on my phone to keep my data safe.

The UNIX user permission model just doesn't meet modern needs.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#627

Post by bonzini » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

solarkraft wrote: post #585

merijnv wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not, that'd be a violation of the GPL. They ship their own fork/patched version of bash, whose source is on their open source page: https://opensource.apple.com/source/bash/bash-118.11.1/

So ... rootless.h does nothing? I can compile a bash without it that does exactly the same thing? That seems like it would contradict previous comments. What am I not getting?

It contains the declaration of a single function from macOS's libc. You cannot compile Apple's provided bash sources at all without it, but it's trivial to work around the missing header.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#628

Post by alickz » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #602

pjmlp wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outrageous is the entitlement of the current generations for not paying for their tools. Many of us used to pay for every single piece of software that we had to run on top of our already expensive computer around 2000 euros on today's money.

your perspective is limited IMO, for example you have small tools like a save cleaner utility for The Sims3 , some person made this tool in Java in his free time and shared it for free with the community, why should this dev pay Apple. There are people that make Visual novels,text based games and other indie stuff(without using Apple tools most are Python,Java or Web tech) for free or a few bucks, I think they would…

Especially since Apple should _want_ you making free tools for their platform, it directly increases the value of their systems.

How many people stick with iOS because of all the apps they like, which may not be available on Android.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#629

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

adriancr wrote: post #498

raverbashing wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and I've used that other OS a lot as well But it is not a panacea and it is not for everybody. And it has two main issues: - developers don't care about stability and/or polish (just see the discussions on the trackpad ITT) "Oh but if you change library X to Y and reroute libinput and etc it might maybe work and maybe it will not break anything else" - because of the former reason, not all (important) applicatio…

Well... your choice is: - windows 10 - no privacy, hello telemetry, cortana, etc. - mac os - no freedom to do anything not allowed by apple - Linux - polish / ui issues? At least with Linux once I configure it right it works without issue and does everything I want. Currently that means kubuntu 20.04, AMD GPU (or intel integrated) and laptops that say they support it (Dell/Lenovo) or self built desktop. (I used gnome…

> At least with Linux once I configure it right it works without issue and does everything I want.

Until an update breaks it because some asshole decided to break an ABI, or swap out a fundamental system component with a different one, etc.

So I guess what you're saying is true so long as you never update anything.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#630

Post by kebman » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #275

manquer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stop using Apple and go to a reasonable OS. You and I are not going to help Apple keep their $2T valuation, we are no longer the market not been one for 5 + years for Apple Apple moved their focus from the professional market who were willing to pay premium for productivity with better UX/Hardware/Software, to people paying just the premium . It is a lifestyle brand now, people money because it is Apple, not beca…

>It is a lifestyle brand now, people money because it is Apple, not because there is real value they gain for the higher cost. Oh come now, there are millions and millions of professionals using macOS to do work every single day. This is basically a slippery slope fallacy. Today they're making it marginally hard, what might they do tomorrow?!? There are many reasons to prefer macOS to Linux or Windows. The Apple ecos…

manquer is right, though. Since about 2008, Apple has moved towards being a lifestyle / fashion brand, rather than the semi-pro brand they used to be. For me it started with Final Cut Pro, and the slashing of the quite friendly web server experience. They've even tried to make things hard for Adobe at times, forcing people to pay for patches for months if they were doing it "the old way" after an OS X upgrade. They've simply been terribly rude to their own professional users. By cirka 2016 I started actively advicing professionals to shop for other hardware producers, both within creative media and IT. Incidentally, that's also when the last usable / hardware upgradeable Mac came out. Since then they've glued every part on the thing shut. Apple might look pretty, but you're better off using something else. to me this thing is just yet another nail in the coffin. Love, a former Mac fanboy.