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Can't you just right click?

lapcatsoftware.com

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Re: Can't you just right click?

#421

Post by withinboredom »

saagarjha wrote: post #390
diminish wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as an ex-apple employee and long time developer, glad people start to see apple is an open source foo creating prisons of software to lure the obsessive brand fanatics and get a fee selling them as users to the other parties. - in apple tech, the users are volunteer products where servicing them gets a myriad of monetization, notarization etc. - hope open source starts to ignore apple platforms as a target at some po…

I don’t think anyone really had that impression, especially since most of the macOS Forge projects got spun off. But you can’t deny they made (and in many ways, still do) good UNIX machines.

> But you can’t deny they made (and in many ways, still do) good UNIX machines.

If you mean the hardware, it's OK I guess. It still lacks basic computer features like PXE booting (unless you count the proprietary "netboot"). You can't really install much on it or use it for anything but MacOS, which really isn't that great, IMHO. For the same cost as a MacBook, I got a really nice PC laptop with double the specs that runs linux flawlessly. I can also update the CPU, GPU, and RAM, which I can't do with a macbook.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#422

Post by tonyedgecombe »

dasKrokodil wrote: post #414
jyrkesh wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my day job, I work on a relatively large open-source non-GUI application macOS is becoming an increasingly difficult platform on which to release software. We're going down the notarization rabbit hole (which is a nightmare), but given that we don't fit on the App Store, it's very obvious that Apple doesn't want us on the platform. My suspicion is that they will eventually charge $$$ for a "developer unlock" on Ap…

If developers move from Apple to Windows because of this, they haven't learned from their mistakes.

Yes, I've found code signing on Window is a lot more hassle than on macos. You still need to pay for the certs as well. The only distinction is the scary warnings on Windows come slightly earlier.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#423

Post by tonyedgecombe »

spideymans wrote: post #303
floatboth wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC, the CAs Windows trusts charge absolutely ridiculous amounts of money, unless something has changed recently.

Which CAs are available for Windows, and how much do they cost, out of curiosity? Not a Windows developer.

I paid $240 for a four year certificate in 2017. I think the maximum length is three years now though.

KSoftware has a really good reputation.

https://www.ksoftware.net/

Re: Can't you just right click?

#424

Post by tonyedgecombe »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #397
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> installing software that doesn't go through Apple is made incredibly painful and essentially nobody will succeed in doing it. Come on. It’s literally five mouse clicks.

There's no way in hell that a casual user like my parents would to be able to figure out which 5 mouse clicks to do (without direct guidance) Even the documentation doesn't tell you to right click.

That's generally a good thing. If they don't know their way around the system then you probably don't want them installing software.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#425

Post by simonh »

bluescrn wrote: post #408
arkh wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> glad people start to see apple is an open source foo creating prisons of software People have been saying it since day 1 of the Apple App Store. It's called a walled garden and it should be attacked as the abuse of a dominant position it is.

But when a company makes such shiny and popular devices they seem exempt from any usual criticisms of hypercapitalism and near-monopoly power

Near monopoly power. We are talking about Macs still, right?

Oh I'm against this latest erosion of the ability to run whatever code you want on a Mac. This is one of the reasons I just got one of the new Intel iMacs, because I can see this coming on the ARM side. It's their product though, they legitimately get a monopoly on what features it has, and I don't have any right to tell them how to design it. That's histrionics.

There is a legitimate case to be made though as customers as to how we would like to see the product develop. I'm behind that effort 100%.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#426

Post by Cthulhu_ »

lucb1e wrote: post #2

This makes me wonder how open source is supposed to work on macOS. People seem to become more and more aware of it and even enterprises that insisted on support contracts can see that they can't get around open source completely anymore. Meanwhile Apple is removing the ability for me to have a pet project without paying an Apple tax. If the message were completely transparent, something like "The developer didn't pay…

Like all other legitimate software on MacOS; they get a developer account and distribute it via the app store.

For years, Windows got laughed at by EVERYONE because there was so much malware on it - in part because of its laissez-faire approach to letting the user install anything from anywhere.

Mac went for the closed garden approach and there's hardly any malware, adware, scareware or whatever -ware you can think of on the platform, which is one of the reasons why Mac is safer and considered to have a better user experience.

Curation is not a bad thing. And if an open source application wants to become popular for the masses - not the HN power user crowd, which represents only a small percentage of potential customers - they have to conform to its rules.

Likewise, they will want to be available through the Windows store as well.

Using the tools and platforms offered by the OS developers is the lowest friction option for installing software.

As for poorer people and countries, isn't this where the open source charities come in? Isn't this where the big FAANGs - including Apple - and the investors and everyone that earned billions off of software should come in? I mean come on, it's only $99.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#427

Post by blackboxlogic »

FabHK wrote: post #134
saagarjha wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only is the message opaque, but it is intentionally misleading. I know the security team at Apple occasionally has trouble coming up with good explanations of what is going on, but this message really can't be looked at in any way other than being misleading, sorry. And you are absolutely right that misleading messages like these train users to click through warnings.

How is it "intentionally misleading"?

"application cannot be opened" is a false statement. It can be opened, and the user can open it, but they won't tell you how because they didn't get their bribe.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#428

Post by brnt »

lucb1e wrote: post #22
saagarjha wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many (often cross-platform) apps are no longer signed, so they throw up this warning–I assume that users of these have long since learned that the warning is just something they need to bypass. macOS-native apps have largely adopted notarization and the fee that comes with it. Open source command line tools do not need to be notarized. Interestingly enough, it seems to be possible to notarize someone else's app , so…

> learned that the warning is just something they need to bypass Note that I'm not necessarily arguing that training people to click "yes, yes, continue..." is a good idea. Digital security is my day job and I totally see why Apple wants digital signatures for software. However, the message is opaque about what is really going on and just tries to scare people into buying "trusted" software rather than using free sof…

Scaring people into buying software through the App Store is of course precisely the goal of the scary dialog.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#429

Post by classics2 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #426
lucb1e wrote: post #2

This makes me wonder how open source is supposed to work on macOS. People seem to become more and more aware of it and even enterprises that insisted on support contracts can see that they can't get around open source completely anymore. Meanwhile Apple is removing the ability for me to have a pet project without paying an Apple tax. If the message were completely transparent, something like "The developer didn't pay…

Like all other legitimate software on MacOS; they get a developer account and distribute it via the app store. For years, Windows got laughed at by EVERYONE because there was so much malware on it - in part because of its laissez-faire approach to letting the user install anything from anywhere. Mac went for the closed garden approach and there's hardly any malware, adware, scareware or whatever -ware you can think o…

And yet people would vomit blood being asked to pay $99 for an app.

Re: Can't you just right click?

#430

Post by simonh »

derefr wrote: post #248
mehrdadn wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the parent, but: How does a certificate let "macOS verify the app is free from malware"?

If the signed software is notarized, and the signature checks out, then you can be sure that Apple did some malware-scan-like process to the app on their server at some point(1) and that the app you’re seeing is the same one they saw. (1) and probably a manual review if the App under analysis was found to call into any but a whitelist of “safe” system APIs. Without the code signing, you can’t be sure that the app you…

I think an important corollary is that if a binary is signed and does turn out the be malicious, there's a path to comeback on whoever submitted it. The signing/notarisation process creates a chain of responsibility.
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