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What harm do minimum wages do?

economist.com

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Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#591
post #556
post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, different countries have different living standards. That's the point. "Living wage" is an undefined, ever changing concept. Populist to the core.

What a strange argument; you can most certainly quantify living wage for a specific region by looking at the prices in said region.

It's not only the prices but the specifics of what "livable" means. For some it just means the essentials, to others it includes luxuries.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#592
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A free market does not mean that both sides want something with equal desire. I need food to survive much more than Krogers needs my business to survive. This does not mean that grocery sales are not a free market. A free market means that the supply and demand of goods rely on price signals rather than a centralized planner. Labour is absolutely a free market. As wages in one particular area increase, people respond…

>A free market means that the supply and demand of goods rely on price signals rather than a centralized planner. That's one definition but it's not one of the more common ones. It also begs the question what counts as a centralized planner. Does Boeing count if it sets the price of jet planes that only it and Airbus sell? What about when Singapore fixes the price of medical care even though anybody who wants can cro…

Not even sure if Boeing and Airbus are good examples considering that both are intimately tied with the state.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#593
post #398

Look i get that USA has a lot of billionaires and the GDP per capita looks great for the USA but I want US citizens to please take a look at median wealth per adult and see how far you have to scroll down to find the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe... This is a great way to rule out outliers. My home country Australia has 3X the median wealth per adult of the USA. This is similar to…

Does that take into account cost of living? In America you can buy a gallon of milk for $1.50 at Walmart. In Australia (after some brief googling[0]) it's more like $4.50. Same with gas, video games, you name it, a lot of things seem to cost 2-4x more in Australia. [0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?cou...

In America you can also decide whether to be able to afford to pay rent or whether you'd like to not live in agony because having teeth is a luxury.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Textbooks state that, in the absence of a minimum wage, a worker is paid his “marginal product of labour”, which means the value of what he produces. This sentence is just wrong. First of all a rational actor will not intentionally pay a worker the value of their production; you get no profit. Textbooks actually say that a worker will be paid no more than the marginal product of labor, and if labor is in short sup…

Is that how CAPM works?

No, the Capital Asset Pricing Model has nothing to do with this discussion. It takes the payoff distribution of capital assets as exogenously given (and known), then makes assumptions about investors' utility functions to find the price they're willing to pay for these assets, then employs an equilibrium argument and some neat maths to arrive at a linear relationship between the expected excess return of an asset and its beta.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is confusing. If you save, you have more wealth. If you have more wealth, you are more resilient to hardships (economic, health, etc.) - a population of people with large savings accounts and low debt seems obviously better than a population that makes a ton of money but lives close to the wire or carries large debts

Resilience is unnecessary in countries with a safety net. Are individuals in those countries who make the rational decision to save less somehow worse off than those who have to carry a large savings buffer to guard against misfortune?

Safety net usually come with caveats. Foodstamps are as their name suggests not general purpose dollars. Sometimes you have to perform tasks you don't want to do to benefit from the safety net.

Your own money can be used for whatever you want and no need to beg and justify before a government employee.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the OP's credit, I think there's a difference between "a company can continue without filling a specific role for a very long time, while a worker must find a job quickly" and "a company can continue without any employees for a very long time" which seems to be more consistent with your lockdown example. The OP's position is IMO wrong in that (rational) employers aren't incentivized to wait for the absolute lowest…

Every job that pays more than minimum wage is evidence that workers do have negotiating power.

No. In the text book case, you could be paid your marginal product well above minimum wage, and it would be compatible with neither you nor the firm having negotiating power.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#597

Look i get that USA has a lot of billionaires and the GDP per capita looks great for the USA but I want US citizens to please take a look at median wealth per adult and see how far you have to scroll down to find the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe... This is a great way to rule out outliers. My home country Australia has 3X the median wealth per adult of the USA. This is similar to…

> But i believe we should start doing this for US companies as well. We can "call out" whatever you want. People vote with their dollar. Target, Walmart, cheap resellers on AliExpress/Amazon are "winning" every day because the most important thing most consumers care about is rock bottom price. I don't think "calling out" will do much other than virtue signal.

You can't vote with a dollar you don't have. You can't vote for something that's simply not on the ballot.

Many can only afford to shop at those places, or they're the only stores that provides certain classes of necessities within the travel time constraints imposed by their work (multiple minimum wage jobs) and home schedule (they often are obligated to bear the burdens of assisting disabled, elderly, or young members of family or social groups).

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#598
post #591
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a strange argument; you can most certainly quantify living wage for a specific region by looking at the prices in said region.

It's not only the prices but the specifics of what "livable" means. For some it just means the essentials, to others it includes luxuries.

No, it's defined fairly clearly.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never. And I'm serious about this. You know that we have search engines, right? https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hpb20180622.107025/... https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=267875 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3381978 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3520915

Let me summarize what you did here: 1) You had a conclusion in your mind that minimum wage is beneficial. 2) You googled with terms that match your conclusion. 3) You cherry-picked the studies that match your conclusion. 4) The studies all point to either mixed outcomes or minor effects - with no attempt to even establish a causal effects (some of those are downright silly. Like tying minimum wage policy to rising wa…

The article is subheaded "Three decades of research have led to a rethink", and it is all about how economists largely do not oppose minimum wages anymore.

Re: What harm do minimum wages do?

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Textbooks state that, in the absence of a minimum wage, a worker is paid his “marginal product of labour”, which means the value of what he produces. This sentence is just wrong. First of all a rational actor will not intentionally pay a worker the value of their production; you get no profit. Textbooks actually say that a worker will be paid no more than the marginal product of labor, and if labor is in short sup…

> you get no profit. Marginal value of production is almost always lower than average value, because of diminishing returns. Profits are made on the average value. A Marxist take in this is that labour should be paid on the average value of production, and labour should get all the profits.

ding ding ding, we have a winner (so it's at the bottom naturally).
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