Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition • Hacker News Board

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#661

Post by dsego » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

arxv33 wrote: post #623

johnwalkr wrote: post #543

Wow with these comments. You going to the gym is not saving the economy. Yes, we can't shut everything down but you'd think the article was about shutting down grocery stores or the stock market. And by not doing your part, your whole community could be stunted for 2 years. Also congratulations for not caring about a 1 in 200 chance of death (pretty high by the way) because you're healthy and passing on the risk to s…

I travelled all over Europe past two months and I must say Europe is quite laxed. And there cases haven’t really gone up. Pretty much every outdoor cafes in Europe were open with a few exceptions and I didn’t see much difference other than people wearing masks and social distancing between tables. I think in US everything is polarized and politicized. To the point that wearing masks is somehow considered against free…

Oh really? Croatia couldn't afford to lose the tourist season. As a result the number of cases is skyrocketing. The daily reported cases are much worse now then were at the time of the first lockdown. (see koronavirus.hr for the graph).

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#662

Post by djsumdog » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

arxv33 wrote: post #623

johnwalkr wrote: post #543

Wow with these comments. You going to the gym is not saving the economy. Yes, we can't shut everything down but you'd think the article was about shutting down grocery stores or the stock market. And by not doing your part, your whole community could be stunted for 2 years. Also congratulations for not caring about a 1 in 200 chance of death (pretty high by the way) because you're healthy and passing on the risk to s…

I travelled all over Europe past two months and I must say Europe is quite laxed. And there cases haven’t really gone up. Pretty much every outdoor cafes in Europe were open with a few exceptions and I didn’t see much difference other than people wearing masks and social distancing between tables. I think in US everything is polarized and politicized. To the point that wearing masks is somehow considered against free…

> They still have not come clean for their initial mask guidelines that was blatantly wrong

I don't think they were. There is a 2013 study that shows cloth masks would be ineffective at preventing spread of respiratory illnesses, and posts by UIC Health early on that said they weren't necessary (which they've added a notice to). I wrote about this here:

https://battlepenguin.com/politics/secondary-effects/#masks-...

Fauci originally said masks were not very useful (quite convincingly I might add) and then turned around and said they were. When pressed, he said he was afraid of health professionals running out of PPE. He admitted he made a noble lie. So if he was lying then ... how do we know he's not lying now? How do we know he's not pushing masks because it's causing political strife and fear? After all, his wife has a major role at the NIH for approving emergency drugs and vaccines, and Fauci has vested interested in big pharma. You cannot trust a liar and he admitted to lying directly to us!

In Canada, a man was pepper sprayed at a Tim Horton by a cop for not wearing a mask. Another man refused to wear one, went home, and the cops came to his house. The resulting altercation lead to the cops fatally shooting him. A woman with a medical notice in Melbourne was choked by cops and arrested (granted she did flip them off instead of handing them her note like she should have).

Masks have really torn everyone apart, and have been used as a big source of shame. By mandating them, you break the social contract, and you're asking people to accept certain beliefs, for which there are 10+ scientific papers published on both sides of the fence. They make it harder for us to "see" one another. The hurt our trust because we evolved to depend on facial expressions. And if they don't do very much as far as preventing spread of infection, than they might even cause more harm than good. Am I the only one who sees the normalization of the mask as contributing to those who are rioting?

There are plenty of nations and States within the US without mask mandates and we see similar infection rates based on population density. In the end, I think they'll end up being a political statement. Nothing more, and everything less.

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#663

Post by stallmanite » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #286

dragosmocrii wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusing how liquor stores were deemed essential service, at least here in Canada

It's not amusing; it's reflective of the fact that severe alcohol withdrawal can kill, or easily put you in the ICU, which isn't great when we need ICU capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_withdrawal_syndrome > In the Western world about 15% of people have problems with alcoholism at some point in time. About half of people with alcoholism will develop withdrawal symptoms upon reducing their use, with four…

I was really surprised to hear about alcohol bans in eg South Africa for this reason. It’s a terrible idea and dangerous for no real gain that I can discern.

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#664

Post by csomar » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

svnpenn wrote: post #654

arxv33 wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I travelled all over Europe past two months and I must say Europe is quite laxed. And there cases haven’t really gone up. Pretty much every outdoor cafes in Europe were open with a few exceptions and I didn’t see much difference other than people wearing masks and social distancing between tables. I think in US everything is polarized and politicized. To the point that wearing masks is somehow considered against free…

Europe has twice the population of the United States. Yet despite this, United States has 4 TIMES the cases per day. Europe can relax because they worked hard in the beginning to get everything under control. The US never did that, most states (like my home state of Texas) did a half-assed closing for 3 weeks, so the numbers never really got under control.

The US is doing way more testing than most of the populous countries in the EU.

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#665

Post by majormajor » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

zozin wrote: post #599

showdeadtest wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think more and more people are tired of having their jobs, educations, and social activities toyed with like they are trivial things.

The lock downs were premised upon preventing hospital systems from being overwhelmed. We accomplished that relatively easily, at least in the United States. However, politicians and bureaucrats, unwilling to let a good crisis go to waste, have moved the goalposts so much that now the unspoken policy seems to be that a single infection/death is anathema and that everything should be done to prevent it. I don't remembe…

> However, politicians and bureaucrats, unwilling to let a good crisis go to waste, have moved the goalposts so much that now the unspoken policy seems to be that a single infection/death is anathema and that everything should be done to prevent it.

Why do you think politicians want to shut things down?

What worldview do you ascribe to people where the view is "wow, this is a great chance to kill off people going to bars and bankrupt our city/state, I've always wanted to do that!"???

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#666

Post by djsumdog » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

svnpenn wrote: post #654

arxv33 wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I travelled all over Europe past two months and I must say Europe is quite laxed. And there cases haven’t really gone up. Pretty much every outdoor cafes in Europe were open with a few exceptions and I didn’t see much difference other than people wearing masks and social distancing between tables. I think in US everything is polarized and politicized. To the point that wearing masks is somehow considered against free…

Europe has twice the population of the United States. Yet despite this, United States has 4 TIMES the cases per day. Europe can relax because they worked hard in the beginning to get everything under control. The US never did that, most states (like my home state of Texas) did a half-assed closing for 3 weeks, so the numbers never really got under control.

It varied and we're seeing more cases in the EU coming out of the lockdown. Hell, NZ went for total elimination and they got more cases (possibly due to freight?)

When this is over, I bet the entire planet will have rates similar to Sweden. My theory is lockdowns delay the inevitable. We should protect the most at risk (95% of fatalities in the US are ages 55+), but we also need to realize there is no way to really stop a virus in circulation.

I wrote a while back about how we just need to come to accept our life expectancy is just lower now:

https://battlepenguin.com/politics/this-is-not-a-time-of-hon...

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#667

Post by ImaCake » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

johnwalkr wrote: post #543

Wow with these comments. You going to the gym is not saving the economy. Yes, we can't shut everything down but you'd think the article was about shutting down grocery stores or the stock market. And by not doing your part, your whole community could be stunted for 2 years. Also congratulations for not caring about a 1 in 200 chance of death (pretty high by the way) because you're healthy and passing on the risk to s…

Yes, the comments here are insane. You might only get something like the flu, but your grandma is going to be killed by this, or at least crippled. Same with your parents! The people commenting here seem very selfish.

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#668

Post by showdeadtest » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

kimmeld wrote: post #586

showdeadtest wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think more and more people are tired of having their jobs, educations, and social activities toyed with like they are trivial things.

Social activities are most certainly trivial when compared to a pandemic. Right now my kid’s school is starting remote only primarily because teenagers and early 20’s somethings couldn’t stop going to parties over the summer. Actions have consequences.

I think we see the consequences of a plan that is idealistic and unrealistic. I don’t believe any amount of moral handwringing and shouting is going to make it work.

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#669

Post by majormajor » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #565

donor20 wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you are the one not listening. In EVERY other country you can buy masks, and they were strongly encouraged, that prevented YOU from getting sick. South Koreas KF94 masks come to mind, very good coverage and fit (3 parts including one under chin). And despite the lies basically posted by you and plenty of others including health authorities (don't wear masks if you are "healthy", masks can't protect you from covid…

N95s are still quite difficult to find here in the US. Cloth and non-medical disposable masks are not considered protective (although it's likely they block some inbound particles, and there's evidence they may thus result in a gentler illness on average) but do reduce transmission. You're right that there are multiple kinds of masks; in the US, it's kinda pointless to talk about N95s. No one's wearing them, in part…

> N95s are still quite difficult to find here in the US.

Yes, our government has been incompetent all around. That's a bad thing.

If the country can't gear up production of masks to fight a pandemic, why am I supposed to believe we could do anything of meaning competently? I know I'm a lot less impressed with our military's readiness if we ever get into a real war than I was a year ago. We've shown we're very good at throwing money at fraudsters and very little about actually producing things we need ourselves.

We also seem to care very little about over a million deaths, if we go with something like a 0.5% fatality rate. Puts the reaction to 9/11 and the whole "how dare you disrespect our troops" racist reaction to athletes protesting into perspective...

I don't understand the people who go from "wow, we've handled this badly" to "we might as well never try anything again," though.

That should be the motivation to start paying more attention, from local politics all the way up, not give up.

Re: Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

#670

Post by obmelvin » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #662

arxv33 wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I travelled all over Europe past two months and I must say Europe is quite laxed. And there cases haven’t really gone up. Pretty much every outdoor cafes in Europe were open with a few exceptions and I didn’t see much difference other than people wearing masks and social distancing between tables. I think in US everything is polarized and politicized. To the point that wearing masks is somehow considered against free…

> They still have not come clean for their initial mask guidelines that was blatantly wrong I don't think they were. There is a 2013 study that shows cloth masks would be ineffective at preventing spread of respiratory illnesses, and posts by UIC Health early on that said they weren't necessary (which they've added a notice to). I wrote about this here: https://battlepenguin.com/politics/secondary-effects/#masks-...…

>Am I the only one who sees the normalization of the mask as contributing to those who are rioting?

Please, just no.