My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I • Hacker News Board

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#201

Post by actfrench » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #40

All of these comments make me think HN has never interacted with a 5 year old. Adults are barely able to make it through a day of Zoom meetings without feeling drained, how do you expect an almost toddler to react when forced to sit in front of a screen? The only reasons adults can do it is years and years of learning impulse controls and suppression of bad emotions for everyone's good. A 5 year old does not have the…

I don't think it's so much screens themselves, but the way they are used. New research actually suggests touch screens might improve focus in toddlers. https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/toddlers-who-use-touchs...

New media has always met with resistance. Books were once considered poisonous trash. Now they're seen as healthy and educational. "In Plato’s dialogue, the Phaedrus, written in 360 BCE, Socrates warned that reliance on the written word would weaken individuals’ memory, and remove from them the responsibility of rememberin" https://aeon.co/essays/contagion-poison-trigger-books-have-a...

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#202

Post by Miraste » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

actfrench wrote: post #91

It's slightly amusing to me that people are upset kids are "forced to sit still" in zoom as if the didn't have just as much trouble being "forced to sit still" in traditional classroom environments. The big difference is that parents weren't around to see how much suffering this very unnatural forcing of kids to sit still was causing them. A lot of schools have 30 minutes of recess if they're lucky. All kids, especia…

While I agree with your broader point, kinesthetic learning isn't real [0], and modeling education on the idea of learning styles can be harmful [1].

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/the-myth...

[1] https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2019/05/learning-sty...

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#203

Post by bollu » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #119

There are very practical techniques for addressing these problems. However they aren't widely known. For example if you want to keep a kid still to listen, give them something good to fiddle with. For example, teach kids how to finger knit. And then have them do simple finger knitting while they are listening. The finger knitting is an outlet for the ansies, and they are able to pay better attention, for longer. You…

This is very interesting. What other techniques exist, apart from finger-knitting which are unobtrusive and help as an outlet?

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#204

Post by mmm_grayons » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #158

sologoub wrote: post #46

Personal counter-anecdote. When I was I think about the same age (5-6), my mom would take me in the office and occasionally my only entertainment would be a DOS computer with a few basic games. From what I’m told, I was very motivated to get to the said games and quickly learned commands and my way around the command line - skill that turned out to be pretty useful in life. For “Raffi”, being a true digital native an…

> I do fear for the skills of reading a physical book though... Do you need skills for that which are different from reading a computer screen? I only see limitations like no ctrl+f or hyperlinks, so fewer skills needed rather than more.

While there are certainly advantages to digital reading, there's also something to be said for a traditional book. Patience and sustained attention are developed skills, and we have yet to learn what effects a failure to practice them at a young age may have on a developing brain.

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#205

Post by Ancapistani » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

mumblemumble wrote: post #29

causality0 wrote: post #17

hit his parents, hit his brother, broke things, and spat a cup of juice all over my laptop. Barring some kind of psychiatric problem like ODD, that's a significant failure of discipline, the responsibility for which lies squarely on the shoulders of the parent. I would not trust any kind generalized behavioral prediction from someone who can't keep a five year old from striking their siblings and intentionally destro…

I've literally never met a 5-year-old who doesn't do things like this when they're upset. Judging by what was happening on other families' screens when watching my son's online kindergarten last spring, it would seem that these kinds of challenges with the Zoom learning experience certainly aren't unique to my or my friends' families, either. This despite it seeming to me like a particularly happy and cohesive kinder…

> I've literally never met a 5-year-old who doesn't do things like this when they're upset.

Really?

I can't imagine either of my kids doing things like that - perhaps a brief outburst, sure, but it would have been immediately followed by an appropriate response from a parent.

> My sense is that that, if you aren't currently trying to usher a preschooler through this experience, you don't actually know how your kid would have handled this situation as a preschooler.

While we're not under exactly those circumstances, our youngest is six and we've always homeschooled. I also have a number of public school teachers in my family, and from my perspective the problem is 100% the approach. Distance learning can absolutely be effective, but trying to force the rhythm of a government school onto it is a flawed concept.

On the other hand... if they restructured it so it would be effective from an educational standpoint, they'd have a much more difficult time getting those kids back into classrooms when the time comes. I strongly suspect that the programs that are in place are designed more to ease the transition back into the classroom than to educate.

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#206

Post by actfrench » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #193

nradov wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kindergarten in the US became far more academically focused after the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, and the adoption of Common Core curriculum. Most schools also changed the age cutoff date for kindergarten so the average student is now slightly older.

Sounds really crazy to me, here in Hungary most kids start structured classes at 6 or 7 years old. Before that it's just playing outside, singing, listening to fairy tales, going to hiking trips, to the zoo etc. This tight grip on American kids looks extremely stressful and harmful (helicopter/bubble wrap parenting, structuring every waking hour with classes and extracurriculars, driving them everywhere, never leavin…

Same with Finland. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/10/the-jo...

Most research shows that academic study vs play in preschool makes little difference in how kids turn out later in life. And that play might even be better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/20/well/family/let-kids-play...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/family/taking-playti...

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#207

Post by grugagag » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #193

nradov wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kindergarten in the US became far more academically focused after the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, and the adoption of Common Core curriculum. Most schools also changed the age cutoff date for kindergarten so the average student is now slightly older.

Sounds really crazy to me, here in Hungary most kids start structured classes at 6 or 7 years old. Before that it's just playing outside, singing, listening to fairy tales, going to hiking trips, to the zoo etc. This tight grip on American kids looks extremely stressful and harmful (helicopter/bubble wrap parenting, structuring every waking hour with classes and extracurriculars, driving them everywhere, never leavin…

Of course it is harmful. And that together with standardized tests, textbooks stuffed with information that neither the editors fully read is a recipe for a bad outcome. And it doesn't end there, professors are bombarded with so much bureaucratic crap that many of them who would otherwise put up with really bad pay just to be able to teach kids simply give up, but that's just a tangent here.

When kids play they learn a whole lot more about the world, social interactions, their bodies and what not. Kids can learn some things quite early and it is not a bad idea to teach them early either a second language or to read early or some other useful skills. But the problem is this has been exaggerated greatly and way too much is pushed on them.

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#208

Post by actfrench » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

mrighele wrote: post #184

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #40

All of these comments make me think HN has never interacted with a 5 year old. Adults are barely able to make it through a day of Zoom meetings without feeling drained, how do you expect an almost toddler to react when forced to sit in front of a screen? The only reasons adults can do it is years and years of learning impulse controls and suppression of bad emotions for everyone's good. A 5 year old does not have the…

> how do you expect an almost toddler to react when forced to sit in front of a screen? I'm sure any parent will say that it is impossible, and the issue is not the screen, but sitting still. I am in fact surprised that the teachers even asked to make video calls at that age. I don't know about USA preschools but here 5 years olds don't study sitting on a desk all day long, so I don't know how they can expect a kid t…

A lot of US kids are forced to sit still whether they're in front of a screen or in a physical classroom. Typically it's better in preschool, but many kindergarteners only get 20 minutes a day to play if that. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/learning/do-kids-need-rec...

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#209

Post by chinigo » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #49

function_seven wrote: post #26

I'm amazed how dismissive all the comments are here. I read the article and it seems totally normal for a little kid not to be able to do "school" on a laptop. Kindergarten is so much different than later years of schooling. It's not about lectures and subjects, or homework and tests. It's about much more fundamental lessons, interspersed with creativity, socialization, and learning to be separated from your parents.…

"I'm amazed how dismissive all the comments are here" The contrarian dynamic strikes again: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

"An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition."

"No it isn't."

Re: My kid can’t handle a virtual education, and neither can I

#210

Post by codefreakxff » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

throwaways885 wrote: post #106

codefreakxff wrote: post #13

Wow. Agree with all the other comments. I read the whole article, and there is some next level self-centered entitlement here that has wholly passed on to "Raffi" the 5 year old who is only now learning not to deliberately make his little brother cry, and who has learned that spitting his drink on a laptop makes mommy and daddy take him to the park. While I want to empathize with the parents, the fact that they blame…

Maybe have have some empathy for the parents who are working from home, before you start insulting their parenting? Of course the 7 year old is acting out, but it's probably more to do with being stuck in a box/house all day with no interaction with their friends. And no, Zoom calls don't class as interaction for kids. This child desperately needs to play outside, not stuck behind a blurry screen learning maths.

I do work from home, and my 10 year old is doing remote learning.

There are many benefits to remote learning, and I know it will come as a shock to people who buy into the 'kids need to socialize' group-think, but the 'socializing' they do in school tends to be very limited in time (a couple of 10-15 minute breaks on the playground, talking at lunch, disrupting classes and not listening to the teacher), and then there is the problem of bullying and cliques of students excluding 'non-conforming' students. Mental health at school isn't handled well. Fairness is out the window. School shootings are growing exponentially.

https://www.ecori.org/public-safety/2019/9/7/us-school-shoot...

Schools suck.

I'd rather my child get his socializing from extracurricular activities with peers he knows and gets along with than dealing with the failures of our educational system.

This article decries remote learning and offers nothing to move the conversation forward on what WOULD work. The author makes no point at all other than complaining about how her child can't sit still. And I'm saying I bet her child can't sit still in a physical school either, so its not about remote learning. It is because suddenly she has to be the one to deal with it instead of the teacher hidden away in a school building. The author wants to paint a picture of how bad remote learning is, when really it's just not suited for her child. It works fine for many other kids.