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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#761

Post by coded »

naikrovek wrote: post #373
bttrfl wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following your logic, Fortnite's add-ons should clearly be free since the cost to make and sell them is minuscule in comparison to 400M Epic made in April alone [0]. [0] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s...

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

“You may not know how to follow logic.”

Regardless of the context, this is so good and hilarious on so many levels. Meme worthy! I’m going to have to try to work this quote into a conversation.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#762

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #699
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #446

>This is not a console you play to entertain yourself, or even a PC for work: it is the foundation of modern life OMFG. Is it just because I'm 56? Is it just because I've spent my entire adult life connected to the internet (barring a few early years where it was just Bitnet)? Is it because I helped start the biggest e-commerce company in the anglo/eurosphere? Is it that I spend all day in front of screens, connected…

Dopamine addiction is a real thing and most people are completely unaware they even have it. That's why they think so highly of phones.

Recently linked on HN:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2017...

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#763

Post by thewhitetulip »

donor20 wrote: post #747
thewhitetulip wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.I have installed LineageOS which has 0 apps from Gogle 2. I have installed android apps from F_-droid/Samsung app store or even Vivo app store 3. I have directly installed apks which didn't appear on play store directly from the internet Where is my false equivalence? Pray tell me? Google makes it impossible for apps to run without play store but I've used 0 google apps on android for 1yr and lived easily with 0 is…

Dude, you don't need to buy an iphone, you don't need to by an xbox, you don't need to buy a playstation - if you do though you will be using their stores / they will be getting a cut.

But when I buy Android I can side load app

If I buy Apple phone I can't sideload app. At all.

How ia this not a monopoly.

Also why you bring xbox into picture. It's a gaming console not a general purpose device ppl use 4+hrs in a day.

They can have their cut buthe issue that you're ignoring is that they don't allow side loading and that they can randomly kill any app they want. Like they have done in the past and small developers don't have the money Epic does

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#764

Post by ksec »

valuearb wrote: post #738
ksec wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but App Store gross margins are clearly likely to be in the 50-65% range, making its break even somewhere between 10-15% of developer revenues. Apple dont booked their customer's revenue, only their receiving ( i.e ~30% ) end. So those are close to 100% Margin as well. There are additional $10 per Mac, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV per unit to Services for their OS, Cloud, Siri and Map Usage. That is close to $3B revenue,…

The audited accounting is clear. Apple s gross margins on services are 68% on roughly $50B in service revenues. That’s roughly $16B in expenses. Subtract $9B for Google safari payment, and you have $16B in expenses on $41B in remaining service revenues, or 60% gross margins. Hosting and distribution of terabytes of data every hour costs money. Building and maintains hundreds of localized app stores costs money. Custo…

No one is saying the App Store isn’t allowed to be profitable for Apple. Just countering the misinformation from the post and the wrong assumption that the App Stores only make 60% margin.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#765

Post by valuearb »

NorwegianDude wrote: post #759
valuearb wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is adding a lot of value for developers and customers by providing a secure low friction app sales and discovery system.

No, they are not. Epic and a lot of others would just go without Apple App Store if they could. They don't need discovery. They are adding value, but that value is for themselves, in form of a 30 % cut. That's not good for consumers or developers.

It’s great for consumers and developers, the security and ease of use of the walked garden is primary reason customers spend 50% more on iOS than than Android, despite Androids six times larger market size.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#766

Post by valuearb »

weixiyen wrote: post #676
valuearb wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn’t make $50B a year from the App Store. That’s roughly it’s entire services revenues. It’s estimated that developers had gross sales of $50B from the AppStore last year, of which $15B is Apples share before expenses. Apples audited financials tell us gross margins on services is 68%, and $9B of those services are from an annual payment from Google for search placement in Safari with a gross margin approach…

Apple Music and anything that has content rights are where low margins are going to be. Services margin will include new areas they are investing in and losing money as well. There's zero percent chance the App Store is running at 50% margin. It's got to be closer to 80% than 50%, or they are doing something wrong.

You are correct Apple Music has low margins (Less than 30%), but it also only has 40M subscribers, which is likely less than $5B in annualized revenues, or roughly 10% of total services revenues.

So $50B in services at 68% margins equals $16B in expenses, deduct $4B in Apple Music expense and you have $12B left. Deduct $9B from revenues for Googles search engine placement, $5B more in revenues from Apple Music, and you have $36B in revenues left. That makes gross margins for the remaining services, which the App Store is 40%, 67%.

You are correct in that 67% is closer to 80% than 50%, but still a long way from it.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#767

Post by weixiyen »

valuearb wrote: post #766
weixiyen wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple Music and anything that has content rights are where low margins are going to be. Services margin will include new areas they are investing in and losing money as well. There's zero percent chance the App Store is running at 50% margin. It's got to be closer to 80% than 50%, or they are doing something wrong.

You are correct Apple Music has low margins (Less than 30%), but it also only has 40M subscribers, which is likely less than $5B in annualized revenues, or roughly 10% of total services revenues. So $50B in services at 68% margins equals $16B in expenses, deduct $4B in Apple Music expense and you have $12B left. Deduct $9B from revenues for Googles search engine placement, $5B more in revenues from Apple Music, and y…

I've not done the research, but following your #s, there remains 60% of the $36b unaccounted for. Where's that coming from, and what are those margins?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#768

Post by jld89 »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #718
bllguo wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many comments here to this effect and they're all so puzzling. I'd love to hear exactly what "nonsense" I'm supposedly worried about all the time. Relying solely on Google's store is perfectly usable. I wish I could find data on this but I'd confidently assert the vast vast majority of (non-Chinese) Android owners never use alternative stores.

The first one that comes to mind is how many android phones are out of date - upgrading to the latest version of android isn't a priority for mobile distributors and is a lot of work on some phones. So this causes a larger attack surface, Apple is very careful to make their phones all have the latest iOS - also makes it easier to develop to. Another issue is trust - who knows what google does with your data, their bu…

Apple's business model is also built around exploiting your personal data, not at the same scale sure but still. Just look at the Siri recordings scandal

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#769

Post by SmallDeadGuy »

siruncledrew wrote: post #428
naikrovek wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

Epic is not putting up some legal crusade for the “little guy” competitors. Epic is putting up a fight for Epic. It all comes down to money. If Epic was running their own platform, and 3rd parties didn’t want to abide by their rules, then Epic would give those 3rd parties the finger and tell them to F-off the same as Apple. Each is trying to grab as much profit as they can while running into the issue of other hands…

They do run their own platform, the Epic Games Store, which is PC only but trying to compete with steam. Want to know how much cut they take in the Epic Games Store? For things worth £50+ rather than £0.99 in-app purchases?

It's 12%. They also allow selling games made with their competitor technologies (e.g. Unity), and the cut is still the same.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#770

Post by romanoderoma »

reaperducer wrote: post #102
romanoderoma wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common argument, but it's wrong IMO iPhone is not an Android competitor, iPhone is a Samsung/Huawei/LG etc competitor Android competes with iOS If I could install iOS on a Samsung device or Android on an iPhone that would be different But I can't

If I could install iOS on a Samsung device or Android on an iPhone that would be different I'm with you there. I'm so mad that I can't install iOS on any device I want. My Android phone? Nope. My HP laptop? Nope. My car entertainment system? Nope. My TRS-80? Nope. My waffle maker? Nope. I even tried to install iOS on my cat, and she rebooted all over the rug. Clearly this is a massive conspiracy by the Apple industri…

> My HP laptop?

Yes.

You could.

Hackintosh do exist, you know?

Buut it's illegal because Apple doesn't want to.

So blame Apple for your cat.

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