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Modeling a Wealth Tax

paulgraham.com

951–960 of 1001 posts

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#951
post #838
post #778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea that people [read: super rich] "will just move to another country" is very silly. This is a recurring theme in owners/investors: they always have some story that they will be forced to leave or close shop if some labour-proteaction-laws (like weekends, or 8h days, or banning of child labour), or taxes are implemented. It's a very old story, there's a history to it. Please note that we have weekends/8h work…

Then why are all the manufacturing jobs in China and other countries without those labor laws? The remaining jobs in the US are salaried position where "8 hour workday" and "weekend" are often meaningless. Plus we're talking about a wealth tax in California. You can start a company in Nevada and still access the market of California just fine.

Why are so many software engineer jobs in California, the highest cost of living state, and not in the lowest cost of living state with lowest taxes then?

You overlook the value of regional nexuses, and the positive externalities can dwarf the negatives of the taxes or regulations.

Ask yourself Nevada isn't Silicon Valley.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#952
post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are all the manufacturing jobs in China and other countries without those labor laws? The remaining jobs in the US are salaried position where "8 hour workday" and "weekend" are often meaningless. Plus we're talking about a wealth tax in California. You can start a company in Nevada and still access the market of California just fine.

Why are so many software engineer jobs in California, the highest cost of living state, and not in the lowest cost of living state with lowest taxes then? You overlook the value of regional nexuses, and the positive externalities can dwarf the negatives of the taxes or regulations. Ask yourself Nevada isn't Silicon Valley.

This is an artifact of history and where the companies that started Silicon Valley existed. California in the 50s, 60s, and 70s was a different place than it is today. It's remained a nexus in spite of the taxes and cost of living, not because of it. That doesn't mean you can raise taxes and cost of living arbitrarily high and the nexus will never shift. There is no force of nature keeping it in place, just habit and custom.

We're rapidly finding out this year that we don't even need to be in a particular place to continue working together, something that has only become true relatively recently.

It is dangerous to assume that things will remain the same as they always have been, regardless of other things that change.

There's obviously a breaking point at which people will leave. There's a thread here almost every day now about how everyone is moving out San Francisco.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#953

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confused. We're talking about multi-millionaires, often in the tens of millions, and more. No-one is saying that regular Joe's with $800 in their savings account should be penalized for just letting them sit.

>No-one is saying that regular Joe's with $800 in their savings account should be penalized for just letting them sit. Does no one in this thread understand that there already exists wealth taxes in countries without explicit wealth taxes? While many countries have explicit wealth taxes (Government agency that will demand you pay x on y), many (almost all) countries have wealth taxes that tax "regular Joe's with $800…

You're falsely equating inflation with actual wealth tax when they work differently (wealth tax does not apply to every saver, or to every saver equally), and then just blame wealth tax for the faults of inflation that it does not share. Really.

Since you need it spelled out again: unlike inflation, actual wealth tax will not take $16 from your Joe because in case of actual wealth tax, $800 is three or four orders of magnitude below minimum taxable amount of savings.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#954
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His newest book goes much further, if you read Capital in the XXI Century you should give it a try. My takeaway from this blog post and his book is that: 1. we should have way more transparency on who owns what: currently information about who owns what stock is in the hands of private companies and it's not disclosed to the public. One of the effects of having an income tax is that we have very detailed information…

Exit taxes decrease competition among state entities themselves, who have the largest monopolies of anyone.

I was trying to make a point about decreasing fiscal competition. So, yeah, good!

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#955

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can easily fire my asset manager, or switch to a plethora of low cost options, or manage my capital myself. How exactly will I have those options with the wealth tax if you like you said, I’m not getting that rate of return justifying the tax?

You won't. Sorry, but people shouldn't be able to just fire their entire society as they would a wealth manager. On second thought, I suppose you could vote or otherwise participate in politics.

But let me guess, it’d be immoral for parent commenter to use their wealth to participate in politics?

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#956
post #861
post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the USA somehow think that having a huge amount of loosers in society will turn out ok. Enjoy your ever growing prison population, crime, unemployment and inequality. But hey! You can become the next Bezos! Isn't that grand? Freedom baby!

You don't help losers by knocking down the winners. Cutting off Usain Bolt's legs isn't going to make you run any faster.

That's the thing, a bit of tax won't knock anyone down. Using that money to provide more equal access to opportunity creates more winners.

Running doesn't require much money, so a lot of people can do it and therefore you can get someone as insanely good as Bolt. If running required startup capital of $100k, would we have Bolt?

Healthcare, education and a safe environment does require a lot of money in the USA. Specifically, it requires you to be born in a family that has it already. If not, you are born with your legs cut off, but if you work really really really hard, you can be one of the lucky few who make it out, and compete with those born with two legs. It's just an extremely uneven playingfield.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#957
post #704

This is simplistic to the point of absurdity, and doesn't model how any sensible wealth tax would be implemented or paid. First, any wealth tax being seriously discussed has a floor and/or has marginal rates, probably starting at 1 or 5 or 10 million (or higher). Second, taxes don't disappear into nothingness - they pay for civilization. It is clearly beneficial to everyone to live in a society where people are well…

100% agree with everything you wrote. Paul's modeling of the wealth tax is incredibly naive and simplistic... to the point of either being extraordinarily dumb or intentional misleading. Given how intelligent Paul Graham is, I'm gonna say the later. I don't even gross 200k USD per year and I could afford a 1-2% wealth tax, no sweat.. wouldn't even miss it. In fact my savings would continue to grow almost unabated. Th…

>I don't even gross 200k USD per year and I could afford a 1-2% wealth tax, no sweat.. wouldn't even miss it. In fact my savings would continue to grow almost unabated.

THIS! Most Americans just don't have many sitting assets, so even if you made the wealth tax apply equally to everyone, and we all had to pay an additional 1% on our net worth each year, for most of us that's either 1% of our house value or 1% of a small amount sitting in a bank account. For a billionaire that's $10M, which is about my city's whole budget. So another framing could be: "billionaires should annually pay for a small city's municipal expenses" -- it seems more than fair.

Even in the case of not-yet-wealthy-startup-folks, assuming shoddy implementation -- "my money isn't liquid -- paying 1% tax on $1M of monopoly money from a startup is going to be hard" it's actually just $10k. And marginal rates and floors can easily make it all work. I'm a spoiled tech employee, I'd pay 1% of my salary a year for the purpose of helping mitigate income and quality-of-life inequality.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#958
post #704

This is simplistic to the point of absurdity, and doesn't model how any sensible wealth tax would be implemented or paid. First, any wealth tax being seriously discussed has a floor and/or has marginal rates, probably starting at 1 or 5 or 10 million (or higher). Second, taxes don't disappear into nothingness - they pay for civilization. It is clearly beneficial to everyone to live in a society where people are well…

>taxes don't disappear into nothingness - they pay for civilization

Paying for civilization creates the conditions for even more elites to emerge. From an inequality perspective, you probably should disappear it into nothingness.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#959
post #934

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exasperated/condescending tone of your comment is really inappropriate, given the number of specious and economically fallacious arguments contained in it. Let's go through each: >>There's a reason failed states and unstable/developing countries generally aren't where people are looking to startup the next big tech company. There's a negative correlation between government spending levels as a percentage of GDP,…

>>>There's a negative correlation between government spending levels as a percentage of GDP, and economic growth rates. Your implication, that society is better off with high levels of taxation, is not supported by the science on the matter. I don't think your correlation suggests what you think it does - look closer at which countries have the highest GDP growth rates. Economic growth rates are not a good indication…

>>I don't think your correlation suggests what you think it does - look closer at which countries have the highest GDP growth rates.

I don't follow. The countries with the highest GDP growth rates are the ones seeing standard of living and poverty rates improve the fastest.

Within the developed world, those countries with the highest GDP growth rates are those that are producing the highest wage growth for their people.

>>I'd generally use HDI, happiness, life satisfaction, or similar, all of which correlate to higher government spending.

HDI, happiness, etc improve faster in countries with higher economic growth rates. A common pattern could be that countries institute sensible economic policies, based on what science (Economics) says works, and then when they get wealthy, become complacent, and adopt all sorts of anti-capitalistic policies that retard economic growth rates, which in turn results in all socioeconomic metrics stagnating.

Look at the Scandinavian countries: they attained the highest life expectancy and health outcomes in the world by the 1960s, after a century of very free-market oriented policies and moderate tax rates.

Then they adopted very socialistic policies, and subsequently saw both their economic growth rates, and their rankings in metrics like per capita GDP and life expectancy, suffer.

Hong Kong and Singapore for example caught up to and surpassed every Scandinavian country in life expectancy over the last 50 years. That is not a sign of superior policy in the European social democracies. That's a sign of squandering a lead, based on economically misinformed narratives favoring non-consensual income redistribution.

>>So your wealth (above the threshold) grows at an effective 3% instead of 4% (or whatever). PG's essay makes it seem like your fortune will dwindle away to nothing, which isn't true. It'll just grow more slowly than it could.

The essay explains how much you're losing over time, compared to what you would have had in the absence of the wealth tax, but okay, fair enough.

>>But this misses the point - other things aren't equal! California already has a higher tax burden than many other states, the US already has higher taxes than many other nations, and still they are among the richest places on earth. Higher taxes can create a society much more beneficial to all of its members, including the rich ones.

Being among the richest places in the world is a consequences of centuries of prior policy, not the policy in this one snapshot in time alone! The labor productivity and wage growth rates clearly show a stagnation since the high-social-welfare-spending policies were instituted.

California has consistently lost the middle class to Texas since becoming a very high tax rate state. This pottentially indicates that the latter has better policy than the former.

>>Enough to make sure every person has enough to eat, somewhere to live, universal healthcare, access to education, and the opportunity to succeed.

What if that means 99% tax rate? Do you really think that is better for the population in the long run?

Where do you think opportunity comes from anyway? Your assumptions on what leads to societal progress contradicts the findings of a century of economic scholarship, and with all due respect, are every bit as ignorant as anti-vaxxerism.

>>Unlikely. If there is such a stage, I suggest to you it's well below

Wait, you think it's unlikely that there is a point at which higher tax rates for more social welfare programs would do more harm than good?

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#960
post #925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exasperated/condescending tone of your comment is really inappropriate, given the number of specious and economically fallacious arguments contained in it. Let's go through each: >>There's a reason failed states and unstable/developing countries generally aren't where people are looking to startup the next big tech company. There's a negative correlation between government spending levels as a percentage of GDP,…

> The exasperated/condescending tone of your comment is really inappropriate, given the number of specious and economically fallacious arguments contained in it. Your own comment is considerably more condescending. As for speciousness... > There's a negative correlation between government spending levels as a percentage of GDP, and economic growth rates. Your implication, that society is better off with high levels o…

>>That correlation is disputed, to say the least. Even if it weren't, economic growth rates, while important, are not the be-all and end-all of society being "better", especially when a large amount of the wealth is concentrated in a few hands.

The correlation is plainly evident in the datasets. It's a very strong correlation that has been widely observed and studied.

>>It seems probable that pg simply did not take interest into account.

It's possible he did. Regardless, PG clearly laid out why such taxes are absolutely disastrous for both the incentives to start companies and the expansion rate of existing companies. You can fiddle around with the numbers, and the basic conclusion wouldn't change.

>> Even if it weren't, economic growth rates, while important, are not the be-all and end-all of society being "better", especially when a large amount of the wealth is concentrated in a few hands.

Economic growth rates strongly correlate with improvements in overall socieconomic metrics. See my comment in the other discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24207752

>>But the United States isn't necessarily at or even near that stage, considering that several large European countries have strong economies despite much higher government spending as a percentage of GDP.

The US and large European countries have all seen their economic and wage growth rates stagnate since 1970. This is disastrous for the objective of improving quality of life. Nothing has a larger long-term impact on quality of life than per capita GDP. Productivity growth is the basis of nearly every improvement in people's living conditions.

Of course, Western countries still have strong economies. Other countries cannot catch up to three centuries of superior industrial development in a single generation. But the rate of improvement has stagnated, and other less social democratic countries have closed their gap with the West, so there is absolutely no reason to assume the last 50 years' experiment in social democracy has been a success.

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