Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety • Hacker News Board

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#271

Post by dorkwood » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

hdfhu wrote: post #258

dorkwood wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps what you practiced was exactly "thinking about nothing and keeping your mind blank"? That would be the opposite of meditation and could be harmful, I guess. I mean, it requires prolonged concentration to clear one's head -- but I'll admit that I'm not a meditation expert. Perhaps I was taught incorrectly. What thoughts should be running through your head while you meditate?

There should be no usual analytical activity in your mind during that time. Meditation is a lot like watching a still thought with your mind. Beginners pick simple objects like a black triangle on white background and try to keep their mind completely still, but with eyes open, with no other thoughts for 5 mins. People here that do software can easily achieve photographic quality meditation on simple shapes like that…

Thanks for this reply! I never quite understood what people meant when they said they were going to meditate on a thing or an idea. This clears things up a lot.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#272

Post by NoOneNew » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

uwagar wrote: post #80

NoOneNew wrote: post #63

Yea... you know, surgery is extremely painful. It can sometimes be worse than whatever is the reason you're getting cut open. The recovery period is a nightmare too sometimes. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Non-religious meditation is sort of the same for your psyche. You bring things to light that have been plaguing you in the background. Once in the light, you have to painfully deal with it. Make peace with…

new scientist has always stuck me as a science magazine for the alt-right type. full page ads of BMWs on the opening page and some climate change article as well.

Huh... that's super interesting you said that. As a conservative, the entire "magazine" feels more leftist, snowflake to me. Avoiding painful, tough self-responsibility and action in life is what stuck out to me in this.

Serious question, other than the capitalism part and climate change stuff, what else makes you think they're alt-right? Maybe also, define what you believe alt-right means. Mostly because everyone has a weird spectrum grade as what they declare is "alt-right"... which to me is just a way of calling someone a nazi without saying "nazi".

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#273

Post by nabla9 » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

pvarangot wrote: post #203

nabla9 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to add that for some people the 'freak out' is psychosis, or other serious mental condition that needs immediate treatment. There are many people who come into meditation to fix something because they have a sense that something is going wrong with them. Meditation has become very popular and there is strong incentive to avoid mentioning possible negatives. Then you just ship out damaged people from the b…

Psychosis triggered by a very unexpected and emotionally strong event doesn't need immediate treatment. You may put yourself back together in a short amount of time and actually getting help may be worse in the long run as you will probably start adjusting variables in your life, like taking meds or getting closer or more distant to particular people, that not necessarily lead to the self-improvement you need. The wh…

> Psychosis triggered by a very unexpected and emotionally strong event doesn't need immediate treatment.

People may come back without treatment but once you had a psychosis the propensity to get it again has increased. That's why it's usually good to seek help even if the symptoms go away.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#274

Post by kanyethegreat » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 6:06 PM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #43

r34 wrote: post #7

I've been practicing meditation for several years now. The phenomenon described in the article is very obvious to every practitioner - it can happen that for some time you will feel worse (actually I'm surprised that it's only 8%). It is related to psychological mechanisms of repression, which is weakened during meditation practices. That is why during serious meditation retreats (like 10 days vipassana) some people…

Yep, I was just chatting with a friend about our experience with this kind of thing; each of us has done large amounts of subconscious healing work over many years, and each of us has experienced some (at-times quite serious, in my case) anxiety as we progressed, to the point where you really start to question whether it's beneficial or if it's doing more harm than good. With continued work things turned around, and…

I've been very interested in doing this kind of work. Any general advice you can give or beginner directions you can point me towards? Thanks!

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#275

Post by inv13 » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #194

inv13 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A well written short summary. +1 :) I learned that trying to explain this topic to others is like forbidden fruit. Unless asked for. But I am going to write some anyways, because this why we are at this forum anyways. There is no thing like ego, its not somebody. That's the problem itself. Its just your mind, which is forgotten that its just your tool given to you to put it to good use. And than there is something el…

Spoiler alert: The whole realization is that the entire concept of you is artificial. The idea that there is an ever-present unchanging thing called "you" is fairly straightforward for the uninitiated to grasp. The idea that there is no "you" separate from "me" is harder— by a lot. What attracted me to it was how well it blended in with our modern ideas in physics. Not just the idea that a wavefunction never dies to…

My daily night routine includes looking at a picture of dinosaurs, and a high resolution picture of the hubble telescope[1] and realize that there is something that drove the making of all of this, the process of evolving, of galaxies, bacteries, dinosaurs, so on...being huge and getting big, as dinosaurs, galaxies, humans did. And the variety of those, and so on...None of those made any conscious decision of, for example growing a wing in the future, or the shape, or the structure, or the color if it. But yet it did happen. So there is that thing that drove the making and changing of everything. And that there is no I or you, there is just this thing of making without knowing or being able to direct any of it. And this is the point where the we cant really describe it anymore precisely. Its everything you can not think of. The opposite of what the brain is capable of comprehending. If I can keep this point of "worldview" so to say, before actually falling asleep, I get the best sleep anyone can wish for.

[1] https://hubblesite.org/contents/media/images/1996/01/385-Ima...

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#276

Post by nvader » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 6:50 PM UTC

mpax wrote: post #213

groby_b wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is not conducive to maintaining any kind of organized group of human beings. The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences. Worse, it is also a philosophy that contributes absolutely nothing to actually understanding the nature of the world, which is kind of the point of philosophy. In short, nihilists are…

> The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences. How does "life is meaningless" imply "life is useless"? Also, why would nihilism entail radical individualism? The core of nihilism is that since the indifferent universe is without meaning humans have to give it meaning, quite the opposite of what you're implying.

If there were no meaning outside of humans, then every human would be free to construct their own meaning. This then leads to radical individualism, since no frame of meaning would be truer than any other.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#277

Post by eblanshey » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:49 PM UTC

ericmcer wrote: post #142

Early in quarantine, I basically roasted my mental health with wellness practices. Strict diet, running, yoga, breathing exercises, strict sleep schedule, no alcohol, etc. etc. I felt great and in control for a few weeks and then slowly got more and more anxious, which is compounded by the helplessness of 'doing everything right' but not getting the desired result. Last night I played video games and ate ice cream wh…

Sounds like you simply went too hard on yourself. It's easy to do.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#278

Post by Shorel » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #209

friedman23 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are we saying nihilism is bad?

Because it is not conducive to maintaining any kind of organized group of human beings. The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences. Worse, it is also a philosophy that contributes absolutely nothing to actually understanding the nature of the world, which is kind of the point of philosophy. In short, nihilists are…

I see it the other way around. Like, I can't even reconcile how you see the world with the reality around me.

Life is finite and it will end, just like the nihilist faction proclaims. No reincarnation, no eternal life. The eternalist faction got it wrong.

Life is an infinitesimally small spark of light but lost in the infinite darkness.

And there lies its value. Life is unique, every single moment you are alive is the most valuable moment in time, and it is therefore priceless. Carpe Diem.

Also, people always care. Even for trivialities, they always care.

I love being alive and I appreciate every single moment of it. Because I know it will be over some day.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#279

Post by Shorel » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

nvader wrote: post #276

mpax wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences. How does "life is meaningless" imply "life is useless"? Also, why would nihilism entail radical individualism? The core of nihilism is that since the indifferent universe is without meaning humans have to give it meaning, quite the opposite of what you're implying.

If there were no meaning outside of humans, then every human would be free to construct their own meaning. This then leads to radical individualism, since no frame of meaning would be truer than any other.

Just to be a contrarian, try telling that to the countless species we are driving to extinction today.

(Supposing they can understand us.)

For them, we are radical individualists with no regards for nothing but ourselves.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#280

Post by Shorel » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 8:40 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #208

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

"major changes in cognition can go either way. Be careful!" I read some spiritual books about LSD in my late teens and I almost believed the "holy spiritual drug changing consciousness" motive. But I was cautious and never took it and wanted to wait for the right time (it never came so far). One of the main reasons of waiting longer was, that I met some LSD gurus in real live - who where just retards. So I focused mo…

Very interesting.

I am right now thinking about simracing as a way to meditate. You totally have to just focus on perception, no thinking, no ego, no self, nothing but the car and the road, and you repeat, and repeat, and repeat the track, over and over.

It works your mind, without any harmful effects (that I know of).