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Modeling a Wealth Tax

paulgraham.com

621–630 of 1001 posts

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#621

I'm highly skeptical of the claim that such tax would discourage startup founders. Wealth tax proposals I've seen don't kick in until $50 million or $100 million. This means that there is a floor on how "poor" the government can make you via a wealth tax. This has two implications: 1. Most "successful" startup founders don't break that threshold of personal wealth. 2. For most startup founders, the startup is the onl…

Startup founder wealth comes from VCs. The reason people found startups in California is because that's where the VCs are. If you drive away the VCs, you will drive away the founders as well.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#623
PG is assuming the stock doesn't grow at all in this article (in 60 years!). Let's say it grows at 8% a year, which is pretty conservative. If you started at $1 million, with a 1% wealth tax, at the end of 60 years you would have $55 million.

Warren's plan was a 2% wealth tax over $50 million. Let's say you start at $50 million, and that grows 8% a year, and you get taxed 2%. At the end of 60 years, that's grown to 1.5 BILLION.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#624
post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wealth tax proposals I've seen don't kick in until $50 million or $100 million. This means that there is a floor on how "poor" the government can make you via a wealth tax. That’s just the starting point. Once people begin to figure out how to avoid it or have been tapped then the qualifier will be lowered to 40m. And then eventually 30m and do on until anyone above average is paying it. And then anyone above media…

> These things always get a wider, and wider net until anyone just starting to get ahead is caught in it. No, they don't. You only have to go back a couple years in the US for an example where tax rates for the wealthy were massively cut.

But that doesn't answer the complaint. The original idea of income tax was also that only the wealthy would pay, not the middle class. Yet here we are.

Tax rates for the wealthy were cut? That's great, for them. Were tax rates cut for the middle class? Did any of the lower class no longer have to pay income tax? That's what would be a response to nemo44x. (What would be a response to me would be for there to be no income tax for anyone in the lower 90% of income. That would be back to the original intent, and would reverse all the years of scope creep.)

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#625
post #326

Isn't this model is ignoring the fact that the proposed wealth tax plans are _marginal_ rates? Take Sanders' plan [1] for instance: * 1% annual tax on net worth above $32M * 2% above $50M * 3% above $250M * 4% above $500M * 5% above $1B Also note that based on those numbers this tax would impact the wealthiest 180,000 households in the US (out of 129M, which is roughly the top 0.1%). Warren's plan [2] is less aggress…

You’re forgetting inflation and income taxes! If I had a $1b I would have to earn 5% + 2-3% a year just to break even - but if some portion of that 7-8% was income/capital gains than I would have to earn even more... and that’s before I put fuel in my jet or feed my thoroughbreds...

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that a wealth tax of just 1% doesn't actually raise that much money, a proposed wealth tax of 2-3% (Warren) would be the highest in the world. If you have that kind of money, why would you not just take it elsewhere? Think about it, if that capital is actually creating returns to make up for the depreciation, it must be working capital . Removing it from the economy would be damaging. What if the money…

> If you have that kind of money, why would you not just take it elsewhere? Take it where? Lots of Europe has wealth taxes already. Commonwealth countries like AUS and CAN are likely to follow suit with a wealth tax -- capital flight to the US would be a big factor for them implementing it now but an American wealth tax opens the door. And never mind that you're also asking people to give up their US citizenship to d…

> Take it where? Lots of Europe has wealth taxes already.

All European countries either don't have wealth taxes anymore, or they're fractions of a percent, not 2-3%. The German supreme court even ruled the wealth tax unconstitutional.

> Commonwealth countries like AUS and CAN are likely to follow suit with a wealth tax -- capital flight to the US would be a big factor for them implementing it now but an American wealth tax opens the door.

Of course not, they would prefer the inflow of capital over the meager revenue from a wealth tax.

> And never mind that you're also asking people to give up their US citizenship to dodge these taxes -- the risk of which is probably as lot higher than just paying.

If you have a lot of money to lose, it's probably riskier to entrust a lifetime of tax obligations to a bankrupt state than to give up its citizenship. Rich people tend to be welcome abroad everywhere.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#627
I don't understand why someone should be punished for being successful... It's scary how willing some are to give a government even more of their money. Governments aren't infallible, nine times out of ten they're corrupt and waste hundreds of billions each year. Why would any logical human being advocate giving them more money? We should be reducing the amount of money governments get from us.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#628

Perhaps notable: Switzerland has a wealth tax (of up to 0.3%), and there is zero evidence that this has any deterrent effect on wealthy people settling in Switzerland or startups being created in Switzerland. Other features of the tax system more than offset the 0.3% wealth tax. Personally, I am a bit disappointed by the lack of depth of the discourse: Wealth taxes and their effect have been studied quite a bit in ec…

>there is zero evidence that this has any deterrent effect on wealthy people settling in Switzerland or startups being created in Switzerland

Got a peer-reviewed citation that there is zero evidence? Or is that your opinion?

Here's some evidence on Swiss rich mobility [1]: ".. tax records of two cantons with quasi-randomly assigned differential tax reforms suggest that 24% of the effect arise from taxpayer mobility .." [4]

Taxpayer mobility.... means rich people moving for tax reasons, correct?

Many countries had a wealth tax; almost all of them dropped it because it did cause capital flight and didn't generate much revenue compared to the costs. Switzerland was late to that party, and will likely drop theirs for the same reasons.

Here's but one paper on the actual effects of the Switzerland wealth tax:

[1] "We estimate that a 0.1 percentage-point rise in wealth taxation lowers reported wealth by 3.5% in aggregate. Expressed relative to taxable capital income flows, this implies a net-of-tax elasticity of roughly 1.2, which is large compared to the elasticities typically estimated in the income literature. The elasticity of tax revenues with respect to tax rates is only -0.2"

So you see it's already pushing wealth out of the tax base.

As to where wealthy people settle, look for the papers on wealthy moving between Swiss cantons to get the best tax advantage (the tax rates are by canton). So there is absolutely evidence of rich moving to take better tax advantage.

>Wealth taxes and their effect have been studied quite a bit in economics literature, and there are various peer-reviewed papers that attempt to measure the effects, but the Silicon Valley crowd is strangely avoidant of examining evidence or explaining their opposition with real-world data

Yes, there is ample economic evidence. It's odd that those pushing for one in the US ignore the past case evidence.

For example, [2] shows that a wealth tax does lower entrepreneurship, in [3] Stiglitz shows that a wealth tax does have a negative effect on investment and increased risk-aversion.....

Google scholar has lots of papers on what happened to countries that implemented such taxes, and why those taxes got dropped.

[1] https://www.nber.org/papers/w22376

[2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/097135570801700...

[3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B978012780...

[4] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3471248

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#629
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the wealth tax is not the same across the country and definitely there is evidence of wealthy people choosing their residence accordingly.

Could it be that there is some separation between the concepts of "residence" and "wealth cache"? As in, you can reside where it is nice to reside, and park your wealth where it is nice to park your wealth? The truly rich don't reside in any specific place; they summer here, winter there ...

If you reside (183 days per year is the rule of thumb) somewhere they’ll usually want to tax you. That may be an issue even within a country. Swiss cantons and US states often go to court regarding where some particular person should pay taxes.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#630

Perhaps notable: Switzerland has a wealth tax (of up to 0.3%), and there is zero evidence that this has any deterrent effect on wealthy people settling in Switzerland or startups being created in Switzerland. Other features of the tax system more than offset the 0.3% wealth tax. Personally, I am a bit disappointed by the lack of depth of the discourse: Wealth taxes and their effect have been studied quite a bit in ec…

I'm not sure european examples are a great comparison. First, most european wealth taxes (including recently defunct ones) have much lower floors than US proposals. $1m instead of $100m. That changes a lot. France did experience "capital flight," famously Gerard Depardieu. Second, "capital flight" has always been present in Europe. There's a long history of it, and practical realities make it relevant. I do agree abo…

> famously Gerard Depardieu

This sounds like a funny inside joke, but I don't get it. We are talking about the French actor, right?

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