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Modeling a Wealth Tax

paulgraham.com

581–590 of 1001 posts

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#581
> The reason wealth taxes have such dramatic effects is that they're applied over and over to the same money. Income tax happens every year, but only to that year's income.

Ah, but that is not even true. Because you spend some of your income during the year. When you spend your income, it becomes someone else's income. Then they also spend during the year.

If we could put a trace on a given specific dollar, we would find that it changes hands a few times in a given year, and is counted as income more than once for the purposes of taxation.

That dollar could pass through the same hands, even. I pay you to fix my plumbing. Then you buy from my grocery store. From the bartering point of view, we broke even. From the government point of view, we both have income to declare, even though my "income" is just getting back the money I gave you for the plumbing job.

The idea that income tax is "just that year's income" is dangerously misleading. It's that year's income, N times over again.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#582
post #443

For a guy who's always railing about the value of honest, rational discourse, he's unbelievably misleading and political in this post. He ignores asset growth and the fact that all the wealth tax proposals have a very high floor for the tax. Saying the government will take 45% of your wealth above $100M is very different than saying the government will take 45% of your wealth.

The time-value of money is basic. 1% wealth tax, 3% inflation and 5% annual growth leads to more money in the future, not less. (Those percents are conservative.) Is it possible that PG doesn't understand this? Or is it shallow politics; lying and using his platform spread FUD. For shame. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money

So 5% - 3% = 2% real annual growth.

So 1% wealth tax is equivalent to 50% tax on the return of the asset, every year.

Say what you want, but this makes holding the asset or investing a lot less attractive. It will affect people's decisions and willingness to invest. Maybe we're OK with less investment but we shouldn't assume there is no impact.

In addition what if this is a volatile asset (read: startup) whose value goes up and down? Will the gov't give you a refund if it loses 20% of its value 10 years in?

What if the asset is illiquid (again:startup)? Who will lend to an otherwise not-wealthy startup founder 1% of their company's paper value every year to pay the tax? Because if the startup fails most founders will have to declare bankruptcy (having paid years of paper wealth taxes with no positive outcome in the end).

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#583

After being one of the top-rated commenters on HN for some years, I have not commented in a long while. For what it is worth, here is my two cents on a topic - a wealth tax - that may seem on the surface to be benign but that is in fact just the opposite. Silicon Valley was founded in a spirit of freedom and flexibility but that spirit is clearly and dangerously on the wane insofar as the political environment surrou…

Inequality in your country has risen dramatically the past 30 years. That's what your legislators are trying to address. A lot of value is created in the early stages. Should that be exempt? Remember, companies don't exist primarily to pay back investors, their first objective is to contribute to society.

My €0.05

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#584

Perhaps notable: Switzerland has a wealth tax (of up to 0.3%), and there is zero evidence that this has any deterrent effect on wealthy people settling in Switzerland or startups being created in Switzerland. Other features of the tax system more than offset the 0.3% wealth tax. Personally, I am a bit disappointed by the lack of depth of the discourse: Wealth taxes and their effect have been studied quite a bit in ec…

[deleted]

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#585

Perhaps notable: Switzerland has a wealth tax (of up to 0.3%), and there is zero evidence that this has any deterrent effect on wealthy people settling in Switzerland or startups being created in Switzerland. Other features of the tax system more than offset the 0.3% wealth tax. Personally, I am a bit disappointed by the lack of depth of the discourse: Wealth taxes and their effect have been studied quite a bit in ec…

@thomasdullien Re: "Other features of the tax system more than offset the 0.3% wealth tax.". Yes, but the problem is the other countries contemplating implementing a wealth tax want to have their cake and eat it. They want to implement a wealth tax whilst not making any tweaks elsewhere. All take and no give does not make for an attractive environment, especially in this globalised world where resettlement of people and businesses elsewhere is not as difficult or time consuming as it might have once been.

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#586
post #360

Perhaps notable: Switzerland has a wealth tax (of up to 0.3%), and there is zero evidence that this has any deterrent effect on wealthy people settling in Switzerland or startups being created in Switzerland. Other features of the tax system more than offset the 0.3% wealth tax. Personally, I am a bit disappointed by the lack of depth of the discourse: Wealth taxes and their effect have been studied quite a bit in ec…

On the other hand, the wealth tax is not the same across the country and definitely there is evidence of wealthy people choosing their residence accordingly.

Could it be that there is some separation between the concepts of "residence" and "wealth cache"?

As in, you can reside where it is nice to reside, and park your wealth where it is nice to park your wealth?

The truly rich don't reside in any specific place; they summer here, winter there ...

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#589
Some politicians are proposing not to have wealth taxes, but only income taxes. Let's try modeling the effects of zero wealth tax to see what they would mean in practice for a wealthy individual and for a startup founder.

Suppose you inherit a large amount of money or found a startup in your twenties and then live for another 60 years. What will be the impact of a small or zero wealth tax on your holdings?

Suppose the wealth tax is 1%, the long-term capital gains tax rate for large incomes is 20%, and the annual growth of stock value is 8.25%[1]. That means that each year the wealthy individual experiences an 8.25% growth split into 1.65% growth paid in taxes and 6.6% gain, of which 1% goes to pay wealth taxes, for an annual gain of 5.6%. Which means after 60 years the net worth of the wealthy individual will have grown by 1.056^60 or over 26x growth. By comparison, a 0% tax rate would result in a net worth growth of 46x.

It may at first seem surprising that lowering wealth taxes to 1% or even 0% would produce such dramatic effects. The reason lack of wealth taxes have such dramatic effects is that the growth is applied over and over to the same money. Income tax happens every year, but only to that year's income -- having a higher after-tax income can make someone rich, but more in proportion to their income. Whereas if you live for 60 years after acquiring some asset, the growth in value of that asset will compound 60 times. Ownership of assets compounds.

It is also worth considering that the startup founder who never diversified their holdings, never accepted funding or joined y-combinator, and also never spent their salary buying additional stock, but simply retained ownership of the company other than paying wealth taxes, the percent ownership of the company would drop from 100% to 0.55% at a 1% wealth tax or remain flat at 100% with a 0% wealth tax.

Of course, with modern financial tools no startup founder need experience this: they can simply create different classes of stock, including some founders stock that has enormously overweighed voting power and then sell off only their regular shares to pay for the wealth tax. We already see this with major world companies like Google, Amazon, and Facebook that remain entirely under the control of their founders.

Surely a tax rate as low as 1% (or even, shockingly, 0%) would lead to rampant wealth inequality and an out-of-control Gini coefficient.

[1] The assumption of a return that is consistent across different stocks or even consistent from year to year is highly inaccurate. But if we remove this assumption then all calculations become irrelevant and the only conclusion we can draw is "some people get lucky, others don't". That isn't useful, so we'll assume it is consistent. For the source of the 8.25% figure, see https://advisor.visualcapitalist.com/historical-stock-market...

Re: Modeling a Wealth Tax

#590
post #407

Note that the US already effectively has a wealth tax, because of how long-term capital gains tax is computed. Let's say you had $100M from a successful startup in the first dotcom bubble (2000-08-14). You sell all your stock (unrealistic, but ok), put it in VTSMX (33 -> 83), and you're up to $250M twenty years later. Then you sell it all. Nominally that's a 4.7% annual return, but there was also inflation: your $250…

Turning your argument upside down: What stops the govt from printing money to bring inflation to 2%, hence financing the budget by indirectly taking from everyone's savings?
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