If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees • Hacker News Board

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#21

Post by WaxProlix » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #15

seibelj wrote: post #3

Valid reasons to work for a startup: - You are a cofounder. - You have little experience and you are using this to break into the industry, and get experience on many different technologies ("wear many hats"). - They are working on a very specific problem or using a specific technology that you strongly desire to work on and it's difficult to do it anywhere else. - You want to work a certain way (remote, on the beach…

For me I'm far too naturally transgressive to work at a large company. I really wish I could, life would be easier, less work, less stress, pay better... None of them will take me so I keep help building and (sometimes) exiting startups. It's really exhausting. 20 years of this... I wish more companies would value those who "challenge the book" instead of "follow the book" or that I could find a way to obediently fol…

You should get a therapist (or a life coach?), these sorts of problems are rarely confined to just the work space.

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#22

Post by kilotaras » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

sambroner wrote: post #4

Good read. I like the new story format to rehash the lively startup vs big tech employment debate on HN. It could almost use a part 2 to explain aspects of the conversation (how is the employee making a $300k investment, preferred stock, etc), but I don't think anyone is missing the joke. The story format makes it clear how employees are getting a worse deal than investors. Still, employees receive cash dividends eve…

> Still, employees receive cash dividends every few weeks (a salary), isn't that a positive?

People are usually foregoing part of the salary in lieu of options. e.g. $25k paycut (really conservative compared to FAANG) will come up to $100k over 4 years.

One can consider those $100k as cost of options you get.

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#23

Post by knodi » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #15

seibelj wrote: post #3

Valid reasons to work for a startup: - You are a cofounder. - You have little experience and you are using this to break into the industry, and get experience on many different technologies ("wear many hats"). - They are working on a very specific problem or using a specific technology that you strongly desire to work on and it's difficult to do it anywhere else. - You want to work a certain way (remote, on the beach…

For me I'm far too naturally transgressive to work at a large company. I really wish I could, life would be easier, less work, less stress, pay better... None of them will take me so I keep help building and (sometimes) exiting startups. It's really exhausting. 20 years of this... I wish more companies would value those who "challenge the book" instead of "follow the book" or that I could find a way to obediently fol…

Do you mean transgressive as another word for asshole, in interacting with your coworkers?

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#24

Post by thinkingkong » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #3

Valid reasons to work for a startup: - You are a cofounder. - You have little experience and you are using this to break into the industry, and get experience on many different technologies ("wear many hats"). - They are working on a very specific problem or using a specific technology that you strongly desire to work on and it's difficult to do it anywhere else. - You want to work a certain way (remote, on the beach…

The invalid reasons are all accurate. The only challenge is (almost?) everyone has a friend or colleague that worked at Slack or Uber and made stupendous amounts of money; far in advance of what they would get at a FAANG. It doesn't take into account luck & risk, but this kind of casual relationship with successful startups colours peoples expectations in a different light.

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#25

Post by ignoramous » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #3

Valid reasons to work for a startup: - You are a cofounder. - You have little experience and you are using this to break into the industry, and get experience on many different technologies ("wear many hats"). - They are working on a very specific problem or using a specific technology that you strongly desire to work on and it's difficult to do it anywhere else. - You want to work a certain way (remote, on the beach…

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#26

Post by draw_down » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

If you go in buying the hype you’re a mark, but it does happen. I think people here are in such a hurry to devalue equity compensation that they forget there can be an upside, maybe a big one.

I took my current job because they were offering what I was already paid, plus a better workplace as well as options that, at the time, seemed like they could be a nice bonus. Over the next couple years they gained a lot of value, and I recently sold a fraction of my holdings for several hundred thousand dollars. So I dunno, maybe not everyone holding “lottery tickets” is a rube.

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#27

Post by maps7 » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:35 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #3

Valid reasons to work for a startup: - You are a cofounder. - You have little experience and you are using this to break into the industry, and get experience on many different technologies ("wear many hats"). - They are working on a very specific problem or using a specific technology that you strongly desire to work on and it's difficult to do it anywhere else. - You want to work a certain way (remote, on the beach…

I would like to work for a startup as a way to move/improve my stack but looking at some startup job postings show that they want Googler-tier devs with decades of experience while paying nothing

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#28

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:36 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #10

I missed over $1 million in options when one of my former companies was acquired. I still made good money but nowhere near the same. I was pretty sure it was going to sell, but I didn't know how long it would take (over 1 year for sure) and nothing in life is guaranteed. If I had exercised all the options I would have had over $300k in paper gains for a tax bill. Instead I exercised 10% of what I had the ability to e…

Beware of the 'almost a co-founder' trap where the company is already incorporated and you join 48 hours later and find yourself with 1% instead of 25% and the three MBA types that are now CEO, CFO and COO tell you that those are founder shares too.

This still happens way too often to tech people. Another way in which that can be arranged is that everybody puts some money in relative to your inability to do so as well.

Putting $10K of your own money or not in at the beginning of a start-up should not have a 90% discrepancy in share allocation as a result.

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#29

Post by motohagiography » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

This is perfect.

I looked at working for startups as though I were an investor, because while an investor is putting maybe 1/30th of their fund into a company, I'm putting %100 of my time into it and it will be my sole source of income and wealth, which means I have way more to lose as an employee than someone who YOLO'd a few million of hedged, other people's money into it. As an employee, my risk/reward has fixed upside (+lottery tickets) and an asymmetric downside that includes opportunity cost.

Most people are just doing jobs, and that's how they manage, but money is made in direct inverse proportion to how much physical work you do. If you are doing work, you are rarely providing as much value as someone delivering just the value of yours and others' work. Arguably, the most value is provided by people who do the breadth-first search for opportunities than the depth-first search for technical "solution" leverage. A company needs both, but as the post implies, figure out if you would invest in a company before deciding to work for them.

Re: If founders treated their investors the same way they treated their employees

#30

Post by kristopolous » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

knodi wrote: post #23

kristopolous wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me I'm far too naturally transgressive to work at a large company. I really wish I could, life would be easier, less work, less stress, pay better... None of them will take me so I keep help building and (sometimes) exiting startups. It's really exhausting. 20 years of this... I wish more companies would value those who "challenge the book" instead of "follow the book" or that I could find a way to obediently fol…

Do you mean transgressive as another word for asshole, in interacting with your coworkers?

No not at all. Nobody has ever quit under my management.

People quit bosses, not jobs and I've always kept my people. So I think I've been pretty good