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Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

newscientist.com

261–270 of 295 posts

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#261

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Why are we saying nihilism is bad?

Because it is not conducive to maintaining any kind of organized group of human beings. The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences. Worse, it is also a philosophy that contributes absolutely nothing to actually understanding the nature of the world, which is kind of the point of philosophy. In short, nihilists are…

> because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences

That's hedonism.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#262
I don't have experience with meditation so I can't comment on that but personally I have been though some very tough periods in my life, battling with depression and anxiety and what has helped me a lot during those periods is physical exercise and eating healthy food. Even better if I manage to join a group sport or activity. It is sometimes hard to find the motivation to do it, doesn't provide immediate gratification and relaxation but if I keep doing it is much more rewarding to my mental health compared to all other stuff I have tried.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#263
post #144
post #125

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> It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. I think part of the issue is that the words/concepts really don't translate into modern english well at all. Another example is how frequently the first of the Four Noble Truths is misrepresented as "Life is suffering". We don't have good ways of saying or explaining shunyata or dukkha that preserve the nuance of the concepts. Edit: Thic…

Is there a longer translation that gives more nuance than "suffering"? Often times we settle for less precise words in favor of pithiness/conciseness.

“Out of balance” is yet another way to think of it (Steve Hagen’s term IIRC)

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#264
"when people are trying to still their thoughts, the mind can “rebel”, she says"

Who told them to "still their thoughts"? Sure thing it will rebel since it's impossible task. One can't "still the thought" since at exact moment you FIND yourself thinking it means the thought has already GONE!

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#265
post #106
post #76

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while this is valid, one should take it with a pinch of salt of Not Invented Here Syndrome as meditation is generally a practice of the 'East' and there is a nervousness that it is a gateway drug to the eastern religions for the Christian / rational 'West'.

Asian monasteries have their share of weird and broken monks. Sutras and biographies are full of descriptions of people getting mentally ill. "Meditation sickness" is well documented. Japanese Zen Master Hakuin Ekaku (1686-1769) wrote about his struggle with severe mental illness (Zen sickness he called it). He had to drop meditation practice for several years.

and therapy from a cocktail of drugs leaves all healed?

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#266

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The free 10 day vipassana retreats are really quite dangerous IMO. They're often attended by complete beginners with no prior knowledge, since they're free and sort of marketed as a boot camp. The actual instruction is given on decades old tapes and videos. The "instructors" there are given explicit instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes (which are very much steeped in religious Bud…

> The "instructors" there are given explicit instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes (which are very much steeped in religious Buddhism). So anyone who's struggling, in a weird mindstate, and unsure what's happening to them, and goes to a course leader for advice, won't get any advice other than to buckle down and listen to the tapes, and that often results in misapplying the techniq…

That's true, it can depend on the volunteers and the locations of the centres themselves, so it's a bit of a gamble. I've talked to a few of people who've been travelling in Asia and attended Goenka retreats after huge benders, having never meditated before, because "why not, I've got 10 days left on my visa and need to detox". Then the teachers don't speak any English in some cases. Although one person I met who had done exactly that said it was the best experience of his life, getting through it. So there's that.

I'm not condemning the retreats entirely, I just think that having a complete or even relative beginner sit a 10 day intensive vipassana retreat after basically just checking if they do drugs or take medication or not is quite a risk, and people should know that risk. My friend who had a good experience said he had no clue what he was getting into and thought it would just be a nice relaxing experience that feels good. Having presumably sat one, you'll know that's usually not the case, at least for the first 6 or 7 days, which is a long time, and can be very intense when all the advice you get is "keep going and listening to the tapes".

> It's right their in the discourses.

Also true, to be clear I think that Goenka courses are great resources for people who have sat shorter retreats before or have a long-term, stable practice. It's the "jumping in at the deep end" type stuff that happens, partially because they're free and so easy to access, partly because of the "boot camp" style image, that's risky. Many people aren't inclined to dive into early Buddhist texts and make sense of its philosophy and practice before attending a retreat for the first time.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#267
post #197

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For me, having practised for around 6 years now, I can sum it up as the acceptance of reality as it is. Some valuable thing in my house breaks? Well, that's just what happens to things. There's very little resistance to what's going on even if it's painful. There's also a strong sense that the self/world boundary is constructed, and I can see that construction happening in my mind in real-time. This has led to greate…

Hey, I‘m at the point where you are. Nothing to add, just good to see I‘m still not insane and all the best to you.

Wonderful to hear! Can't guarantee I'm not insane though. Still at least 70% delusion at best over here :)

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#268
post #108
post #15

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I have never sat down and properly given meditation a go. That said I have encountered it in various walks - through yoga, martial arts and casual meditation sessions. What benefits would you describe you feeling from getting past beginner stage?

Robert Kegan has a constructive developmental model where he uses "Subject" and "Object" to describe the progression in development. Basically, you identify with the Subject and at the next level you become aware that that identity is actually something you have, not something you are. Foe example, you have wants and needs you are not your wants and needs. Your identity is not grounded in the fulfilment of your needs…

This is an excellent description. Thanks for sharing. Using a mental technique to objectify any subjectivity that arises. Surfing that boundary, interesting things happen.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being.” This is very important to point out and I think is actually the big trap when approaching meditative practices. I fell into this nihilism trap when I was starting meditation in college and I abandoned my practice almost completely for the next 10 or so years. It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. The latter is an e…

Why are we saying nihilism is bad?

In Buddhism nihilism is one dualistic extreme, the other being eternalism. In the nihilistic view after death we are extinguished forever, and in the eternalist view we have a soul that goes on forever. Neither of these are considered correct in Buddhism. The teaching is a middle path between dualistic extremes.

There is a sutra that actually addresses nihilism, as it was a view that some schools of thought taught at the time of the Buddha. [1]

He considered it to be wrong view, a denial of the results of good or bad actions (karma) and rebirth. With the teachings on emptiness in the heart sutra it states all phenomena are marked by emptiness, “no birth no death, no being no nonbeing, no defilement no purity, no increasing no decreasing”. So nihilists would be led to cling to the view of nonbeing and not see everything else. For me at least that brought about a lot of aimless suffering.

[1] https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.060.than.html

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