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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#721

Post by Mindwipe »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #464
earhart wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that Epic would be able to prevent other stores from being installed. The problem is that if there are multiple app stores, it encourages a race-to-the-bottom for the app stores -- why go through Apple's store with all its vetting if you can release to the Epic store instead? So, yes, the worry is exactly that another company might offer better terms to developers -- because sometimes, those terms…

I suppose one way to counteract this is for apple to license app stores and they have to have the same standards as apples store. I have no desire to have low quality stores on my phone, thats why I like the iPhone - I don't have to worry about all the nonsense android phone owners do.

> I suppose one way to counteract this is for apple to license app stores and they have to have the same standards as apples store.

Absolutely not - that's the entire point of this action. Apple's "standards" are to block upgrade pricing and force developers down a path of microtransactions. Do we really want that to be carried over to other stores? Do we want other stores to have to live with Apple's decision to block apps to help dissidents in Hong Kong or the Middle East communicate?

A single point of decision-making on code always leads to terrible geopolitical outcomes. Always. That is the important part of what is happening here.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#722

Post by Mindwipe »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #718
bllguo wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many comments here to this effect and they're all so puzzling. I'd love to hear exactly what "nonsense" I'm supposedly worried about all the time. Relying solely on Google's store is perfectly usable. I wish I could find data on this but I'd confidently assert the vast vast majority of (non-Chinese) Android owners never use alternative stores.

The first one that comes to mind is how many android phones are out of date - upgrading to the latest version of android isn't a priority for mobile distributors and is a lot of work on some phones. So this causes a larger attack surface, Apple is very careful to make their phones all have the latest iOS - also makes it easier to develop to. Another issue is trust - who knows what google does with your data, their bu…

> Edit: tl;dr - googles business model is built around exploiting your personal data, apples is built around keeping your personal data secure

Unless you're Chinese, when it's not.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#723

Post by Mindwipe »

rched wrote: post #509
kelnos wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. This is literally the point of allowing healthy competition. If Apple wants these games on their app store, they should offer terms that are competitive with the hypothetical third-party app stores.

I’m 100% for Apple being pressured to have lower fees but less stoked about Apple being pressured to allow any payment processor. The root of my concern, I think, is that what is good for developers is not always what is good for users and alternative app stores will compete by doing what is good for developers at the expense of users.

> I’m 100% for Apple being pressured to have lower fees but less stoked about Apple being pressured to allow any payment processor.

You talk about developers if this is the only concern, but Apple is ultimately deciding it wants to not give money to certain social concerns or movements it doesn't like based on it's whim, and no corporation should have the power to do that for something as important as half of mobile telecoms.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#724

Post by chadcmulligan »

Mindwipe wrote: post #722
chadcmulligan wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first one that comes to mind is how many android phones are out of date - upgrading to the latest version of android isn't a priority for mobile distributors and is a lot of work on some phones. So this causes a larger attack surface, Apple is very careful to make their phones all have the latest iOS - also makes it easier to develop to. Another issue is trust - who knows what google does with your data, their bu…

> Edit: tl;dr - googles business model is built around exploiting your personal data, apples is built around keeping your personal data secure Unless you're Chinese, when it's not.

I if was Chinese then I probably couldn't say anything about it, but not sure how this is related to the current discussion - not much any of us can do about china - including apple

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#725

Post by yomly »

simonh wrote: post #702
yomly wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you feel if your ISPs started wanting a cut of all money you made via the internet? After all, it's their house so their rules... Apple have carved out a significant market share of mobile users. They've locked down the OS so you can't install your own apps on it and they've crippled the browser so you can't build nice web apps. For businesses like Netflix, Spotify and Epic who's userbases arguably transcen…

I don't expect to use my ISP's infrastructure for free. However most of that infrastructure was built using tax payer's money, on tax payer's land with special privileges granted by the government, and special tax incentives for improvements. In return we, the people, demand certain concessions and rules to compensate us. I'm actually in the UK, but the situation on this here and in the US are different in many detai…

Fair enough but Apple and Google have essentially built out the entire mobile digital ecosystem. While I can empathise with the mindset that they should reap the benefits of investing and nurturing the platforms, they are also for all intents and purposes a duopoly so I am in favour of that control being wrested back into the hands of consumers and the relationship being renegotiated - the distribution platform of mobile software feels more like a public good than a private ecosystem given the way we depend on it

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#726

Post by danShumway »

ghostwriter wrote: post #703
danShumway wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because their platform doesn't suck that much Apple is the reason why web experiences on iOS suck. They deliberately lag on web standards so that their browser experience is inferior to native apps. None of this accidental. And no, it's not just inconvenience. There are things on iOS that are literally impossible to do in WebGL. Reliable, persistent offline storage on iOS is impossible to do from a web app. Reliabl…

> Apple is the reason why web experiences on iOS suck. They deliberately lag on web standards so that their browser experience is inferior to native apps. None of this accidental. I've never mentioned web experience on iOS, let's not add words into my replies for the convenience of your argument. Everyone is free to choose any other platform with a better web experience and to build on top of it, with all open standa…

> At this point it just looks as a random wish that Apple implements your ideas. Sorry, no one is obliged to implement your wishes as you see them fit.

You don't understand what I'm saying, and I don't know how to say it any more clearly.

I'm not asking Apple to do anything. I want to be able to do things myself without Apple using the government to attack my business.

This is worse than the Right to Repair debates -- people accuse us of trying to force Apple to fix our phones for free when in reality we just want to stop Apple from suing everyone who imports a 3rd-party battery.

Just let people compete, that's all I'm asking. Apple doesn't need to lift a finger. Let other people build emulators, port apps, display content, and make compatible phones. Apple doesn't need to fix my problems, but they shouldn't be able to use the government to stop other people from fixing my problems.

> Apple won't be able to interfere.

Again, I don't know if this is on purpose or not, but I just listed a few of the ways that Apple can interfere with Open standards, including suing competitors that use adversarial operability to get around network effects in an entrenched market.

> I've never mentioned web experience on iOS [...] Everyone is free to choose any other platform

We're talking in circles, but just to repeat -- when you say "any other platforms", that means Android or iOS. Those are the only two viable mobile platforms that exist right now. And good luck building a third when users have invested hundreds of dollars into closed app ecosystems that it will be illegal for you to interoperate with.

If you know a way to get around the problems listed at https://whatwebcando.today/, by all means let me know, I'd love to build some offline webapps for my phone. If you know a way to get reliable disk storage from a website on any mobile platform, please let me know, it would open up a world of possibilities for me as a developer.

But don't pretend the web is an escape hatch when its mobile support depends entirely on the two companies who have the most to gain from keeping its capabilities behind those of native apps.

> Just read how commerce existed prior 1913.

You keep trying to phrase this like I'm secretly being pro-regulation in this conversation. I'm willing to concede literally every single antitrust point I've raised in the comments above, and my only condition is that we get rid of all of the regulations including copyright.

At this point, you're arguing that market regulation is bad to someone who's proposing that an alternative to antitrust might be... to get rid of all market regulation.

What is your position? Do you think market regulation is bad or good? If you don't like regulation, then what do you disagree with me on? What do you oppose about the idea of stopping the government from using copyright to interfere with the free market?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#727

Post by 0-O-0 »

dtech wrote: post #658
sjwright wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn’t force you to own an iPhone.

It does force you to use their app store for 2-7 years once you bought one until you replace it.

It doesn't. You're free to replace it and switch to android (or better - linux) at any moment.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#728

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

orliesaurus wrote: post #14

Okay this is going to sound stupid but maybe someone else feels like me about it: I don't understand why Apple has to take such a big chunk from transactions of in-app purchases? Similarly Google. Why 30%? Why not 5%? That feels like it would be more honest. Is it just because "they can"?

When it started, I think they needed that kind of share, and (obviously) everyone agreed (because they came in droves). Now that the thing is successful, they could surely reduce it. What I want to see is a sliding scale. If you're an Amazon, Netflix, or Epic, based on your sales, it should be an ever-decreasing percentage. I feel like that's how most any business would shape their fee structure, and I don't understand why Apple won't even consider it.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#729

Post by user5994461 »

nemothekid wrote: post #624
cromwellian wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really sure why people are voting this down. It's self evident that Fortnite's "platform" is far more ephemeral than iOS. Team Fortress 2 is probably an example of a skins market that has been around the longest (since 2007), but very few games last this long and run a market that is still selling a lot.

This line of thinking is very reminiscent of “Facebook won’t be around much longer, it will be gone like MySpace”, many people still believe that as FB is now one of the most valuable companies in the world. There is no reason to believe this will be true. Grand Theft Auto V is now 7 years old at this point and has seen 2 almost 3 console generations as generates an incredible amount of money for TakeTwo. The longevi…

Facebook is indeed not around much anymore, users have moved to Instagram. In fact I can't remember the last time I've seen someone under 30 using Facebook.

Give it 10 years and there will be again another large social network. Teenagers won't be on the same network as their parents.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#730

Post by danShumway »

imtringued wrote: post #692
danShumway wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I could buy every single game ever through Steam I would without hesitation. I don't want Origin or the Epic store but I don't get the choice. I know that some gamers feel this way, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Epic's entry into the market has been good for the PC games industry[0]. We have more games now from more developers covering more diverse genres. We've even managed to pull a few exclusives off of cons…

What about people who want to play games on Linux? Since 2018 Steam has made playing Windows games on Linux absolutely painless. How is Epic Games going to afford doing projects like proton with their cutthroat revenue cut? They can't. They charge extra depending on the payment method and from what I have heard they don't even have regional pricing so the vast majority of people can't even afford games on that store…

Having some games not work on Linux is preferable to having fewer games exist.

Again, I understand the pain. I am currently only running Linux. If a game doesn't run in Linux without DRM, I can't play it. I know as well as anyone how bad it feels to see a game that I want to play, and can't, because the developer thought that Linux wasn't a big enough market to support.

Even so, it is better that there be a broad market where I can't access all of it, then there be a narrow market that only fits my criteria and can't grow. Some of the games that don't work on Linux will get ported later, or people will figure out how to get them working in Wine. I want those games to exist because eventually I'll get access to them.

> How is Epic Games going to afford doing projects like proton

They won't. Other platforms like Steam will do that. How is Steam going to afford to get old DOS games working on modern computers without DRM? They won't, GoG does that.

The market is better served when there are lots of people doing lots of different things. It's those conditions that force companies to innovate and find new market niches that were previously underserved.

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