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Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

nytimes.com

251–260 of 357 posts

Re: Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

#251
Mr Powers is pushing an interesting conspiracy theory in this article, which I haven't seen discussed yet. I haven't seen anyone else backing it up in other sources, but of course it's still early in the reporting on this issue.

>In particular, California ISO said two natural gas power plants shut down on Friday and, on Saturday, a wind farm and another gas plant stopped producing power.

The state is currently reviewing proposals to extend the operation of old natural gas plants in Southern California. Environmentalists want the plants to remain closed because they use fossil fuels and are cooled using seawater, endangering marine life.

“It makes for a compelling story” if you have blackouts because of a lack of power plants, Mr. Powers said. “We know there is no capacity problem,” he said. “Something odd happened.”

Re: Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

#252
post #47

Every year you hear about horrible heat waves and fires in California but I'm here to tell you from my first-hand experience that This Time It's Different. I've lived on the SF peninsula for 10 years. We bought a brand new spec house. It was built without air conditioning. The developer said we wouldn't need it. We installed it anyway because we came from LA and a house in California without A/C did not fit into our…

> my first-hand experience that This Time It's Different. I've lived on the SF peninsula for 10 years.

Wait, are you saying that your concern is based on a personal experience of 10 years in a place? Besides the fact that your observations might be down to pure chance, there are also strong decade and multi-decade local climate cycles.

Re: Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

#253
post #3

as someone who apprenticed as a lineman briefly, this isnt at all unexpected. Just because you have generating capacity, does not always mean you have capacity in the duty cycle for your transmission infrastructure. Many substations are older, and were never designed to handle high duty and load during climate-change driven weather events. These substations suffer from underreporting as they often dont have remote mo…

Plausible, but then why is it happening in California and not in similarly NIMBYist states? Electromagnetism obsessives live all over the nation.

CEQA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Environmental_Quali...

Ever since it was passed, NIMBYs and other types of individualists have found more and more ways to use its provisions to block anything from happening that they don't want to happen.

Re: Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

#254
post #251

Mr Powers is pushing an interesting conspiracy theory in this article, which I haven't seen discussed yet. I haven't seen anyone else backing it up in other sources, but of course it's still early in the reporting on this issue. >In particular, California ISO said two natural gas power plants shut down on Friday and, on Saturday, a wind farm and another gas plant stopped producing power. The state is currently review…

> Environmentalists want the plants to remain closed because they use fossil fuels and are cooled using seawater, endangering marine life.

They're currently running, but scheduled (from about a decade ago) to retire at the end of this calendar year. However recently (and prior to the rolling blackouts), several have had their retirement pushed out a year.

Re: Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

#256
post #47

Every year you hear about horrible heat waves and fires in California but I'm here to tell you from my first-hand experience that This Time It's Different. I've lived on the SF peninsula for 10 years. We bought a brand new spec house. It was built without air conditioning. The developer said we wouldn't need it. We installed it anyway because we came from LA and a house in California without A/C did not fit into our…

> This Time It's Different

I'm on the other side of the planet in Northern Europe, and I feel the same. This summer has been very warm, it feels more like we are in some Mediterranean city (especially with all the outdoor seating due to COVID). We haven't had any record breaking highs, but the number of days when it has been 30c+ has been very unusual. Coupled with last winter which basically never came (usually we get -25c and frozen lakes; that never happened), we'll see what this year brings...

Re: Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

#257
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I can't imagine anyone NIMBYing new power poles lol. Old poles get scary, especially when they start leaning over. And then when AT&T was mounting giant ass DSL VRADs on poles too lol. I'd be out there cheering on the linemen for replacing the old junk. :D

I don't think the poles are the issue. They're a proxy. The issue is: what happens when you upgrade such infrastructure? The area become more desirable, there's more development, and more "outsiders" move in.

Yeah but presumably that would increase land prices.

Re: Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

#258
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me that it isn't a thing. There's a bunch of stuff (laundry, dishes, RAID snapshots) that I can schedule to run any time, but there's zero incentive not to run them all at peak times.

But it is a thing [1]. Some consumers have just chosen not to opt in, often paying more overall for electricity as a result. That's why the public utilities commission has started mandating them by default, with an opt out policy instead. People don't voluntarily change their electricity rate plan. When they do, usually it's when they're existing rate plan expires, and in CA there's been a lot of marketing at that ti…

Yeah, "not universally a thing" is what I should have said. I've never had the option to opt in to time-of-use metering anywhere I've lived. :(

Re: Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

#259
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just substations, but the conductors themselves. The more current you run through a line on a hot, non-breezy and sunny day, the more it sags. Which leads to more resistance, which leads to hotter lines, more sagging. It’s a positive feedback cycle.

How does line-sag lead to increased resistance? My understanding is that the mean-free-path of conduction electrons in even OFHC copper is quite short -- scattering on impurities is the dominant loss mechanism, not the boundaries of the conductor. Is the theory advanced above that the morphology of the wire matters, or is there another mechanism at work?

Just FYI, transmission lines are aluminum not copper. Also, both copper and aluminum have positive temperature coefficients of resistance.

Re: Rolling blackouts in California have power experts stumped

#260
post #251

Mr Powers is pushing an interesting conspiracy theory in this article, which I haven't seen discussed yet. I haven't seen anyone else backing it up in other sources, but of course it's still early in the reporting on this issue. >In particular, California ISO said two natural gas power plants shut down on Friday and, on Saturday, a wind farm and another gas plant stopped producing power. The state is currently review…

To be fair, we've seen a conspiracy of deliberately pulling perfectly working power plants off the grid in the past, so it's not outside the realm of possibility. In the 2000s, Enron did it to financially manipulate the energy market, and it was directly responsible for California's last crisis [0]. It's probably where the idea of such a conspiracy is coming from.

> These blackouts occurred as a result of a poorly designed market system that was manipulated by traders and marketers, as well as from poor state management and regulatory oversight. Subsequently, Enron traders were revealed as intentionally encouraging the removal of power from the market during California's energy crisis by encouraging suppliers to shut down plants to perform unnecessary maintenance, as documented in recordings made at the time.

Of course, I'm not saying that the current blackout is a conspiracy, claiming it to be a fossil-fuel conspiracy takes the paranoia to another level, especially when there's no evidence to back it up (yet). I mentioned it just as a historical curiosity.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron#California's_deregulatio...

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> “They set it up like this is a historic event,” said Bill Powers, a San Diego engineer who provides expert testimony on utility matters before the state’s regulators. “This should not have triggered blackouts.”

I just searched "Bill Powers", it seems that it's not a pseudonym given by the New York Times, it's real, sounds like a good name to work in the energy industry, haha...

Seriously speaking, apparently this man, Bill Powers, is an activist in consumer protection and energy issues, who often tries to challenge multiple investigations on energy issues before the state’s regulators. I don't think it's wrong, we need people to show up during official investigations to make them more accountable, but it does reduce his credibility if there's no additional evidence to support his latest claim, e.g.

* Energy Experts Question Scale of Blackout (2011)

https://www.kpbs.org/news/2011/sep/09/energy-experts-questio...

> Energy experts are baffled at the scale of yesterday’s blackout which left five million people without power.

> The blackout here was caused by a transmission failure in Arizona. But power-industry analyst Bill Powers says the grid is set up so that if there’s a sudden loss of supply, energy companies must immediately lower demand through a strategy of controlled blackouts. Powers said a San Diego Gas & Electric executive’s repeated assertion that the blackout was caused by human error in Arizona yesterday falls short.

> “That doesn’t explain why SDG&E didn’t deploy its emergency procedure which is to selectively brownout and blackout portions of San Diego," Powers said. "It looks like something didn’t go right at SDG&E.”

* Is the Porter Ranch blackout warning overblown? Yes, says one expert (2016)

https://www.scpr.org/programs/airtalk/2016/04/06/47787/energ...

> But Bill Powers, a frequent expert witness before the California Public Utilities Commission, isn't convinced by officials' claims, calling the blackout warning alarmist. He said that in at least the last decade, SoCal Gas has never hit its firm capacity during the summer peak in the L.A. basin.

* State Senate To Hold Hearings On Phony Blackout Blackmail Report (2016)

https://consumerwatchdog.org/blog/state-senate-hold-hearings...

> A report by engineer Bill Powers for Food and Water Watch found key mispresentations, omissions, and misstatements about demand and capacity. Will engineer Bill Powers will be able to present his opposition report and provide technical insight to the committee on a very technical issue? Both sides should be heard if the hearing is meant to shed light and not simply give energy regulators and So Cal Gas cover.

* What will the next heavy winds bring? Assessing the great power shut-off of 2019 (2019)

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-10-15/pge-powe...

> “The utilities will oppose accelerating the deployment of behind-the-meter solar and batteries, even in areas that are subject to the shut-offs, because it’s just so diametrically opposed to their business model,” said Bill Powers, a San Diego electrical engineering consultant and consumer advocate.

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