Earlier quoted context omitted.
If Apple has a monopoly on the iOS App Store market, then it follows that Epic has a monopoly on the Fortnite add-on market, right?
No! This is explained right at the beginning of the article: > the question as to what is anticompetitive and what is simply good business changes as a business scales. A small business can generally be as anticompetitive as it wants to be, while a much larger business is much more constrained in how anticompetitively it can act The word “monopolize” is used in a specialised way in antitrust; it doesn’t encompass eve…
Apple, Epic, and the App Store
491–500 of 781 posts
Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store
#492Earlier quoted context omitted.
Following your logic, Fortnite's add-ons should clearly be free since the cost to make and sell them is minuscule in comparison to 400M Epic made in April alone [0]. [0] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s...
You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.
Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store
#493Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…
The problem is not that Epic would be able to prevent other stores from being installed. The problem is that if there are multiple app stores, it encourages a race-to-the-bottom for the app stores -- why go through Apple's store with all its vetting if you can release to the Epic store instead? So, yes, the worry is exactly that another company might offer better terms to developers -- because sometimes, those terms…
Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store
#494Earlier quoted context omitted.
The core point your parent was trying to make is that Fortnite is not an open market. No one but Epic provides goods to the Epic store. Apple allowing third party developers is the distinction being made.
Apple's platforms aren't an open market either. They allow third party developers to develop for their platforms, subject to you agreeing to their terms.
Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store
#495Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think they're referring to swapping in funny money to obfuscate customer ability to estimate the costs. It's similar to how slot machines require tokens, but I don't think that's quite gambling. The gambling part comes in with loot boxes, where you're essentially paying to roll the dice to get something of value.
Fortnite doesn't have loot boxes.
Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store
#496Epic's lawsuit alleges antitrust violations in two different markets: 1) the "iOS App Distribution Market" and 2) the "iOS In-App Payment Processing Market". Proving a violation in one of these markets may be a lot more challenging than the other.
A. Monopoly Power
The first step in proving a monopolization offense under the Sherman Act is proving the company possesses "monopoly power in the relevant market". In determining monopoly power, the courts start by examining market share, but "but typically do not find monopoly power if the firm (or a group of firms acting in concert) has less than 50 percent of the sales of a particular product or service within a certain geographic area." [1]
Obviously, with Apple's current market share of 46% [2] in the United States, they are unlikely to be considered possessing monopoly power in the smartphone market.
B. The "iOS App Distribution" Market and Aftermarkets
Since proving Apple's monopoly power in the smartphone market seems unlikely, Epic instead alleges Apple has monopoly power over a different market: "iOS App Distribution". Since Apple has complete control over iOS App Distribution, problem solved, right? Not so fast.
Much like razor blades and razors or printers and ink, "app distribution" would be considered an aftermarket of the smartphone market. Aftermarkets are very common in antitrust cases, and in general, the US legal system does not allow you to define an aftermarket in the context of a single brand's product unless very specific rules are met:
> Because it would be inappropriate to punish a firm for its natural monopoly in its own products, courts embraced a sweeping prohibition against analyzing alleged anticompetitive activity by focusing on single-brand relevant markets: "[A]bsent exceptional market conditions, one brand in a market of competing brands cannot constitute a relevant product market." [3]
A good summary on antitrust issues in aftermarkets can be found here. [4] Of particular relevance is that an aftermarket monopoly based on a customer's voluntary agreement to a contract is not considered a "relevant market" for antitrust purposes.
In Blizzard Entertainment Inc. v. Ceiling Fan Software LLC [5], Ceiling Fan Software attempted to argue that Blizzard held monopoly power in the market of "add-on software for WoW", and preventing them from releasing their own WoW add-on was a violation of antitrust law. Blizzard argued (successfully) that the "WoW add-on" market was not the relevant market because WoW users voluntarily agreed to a EULA stipulating they would only used Blizzard authorized add-ons when they initially purchased the game, and if they wanted to use third-party add-ons they could have purchased another game instead.
In Apple Inc. v. Psystar Corp. [6], Psystar Corp attempted to argue that Apple held monopoly power in the "Mac OS" market and used it to unfairly block competition in the "hardware that runs Mac OS" aftermarket. The court ruled that Apple's monopoly power in the "hardware that runs Mac OS" aftermarket was based on the EULA that customers of Mac OS agreed when they purchased Mac OS, and was again not a relevant market for antitrust purposes, because "customers knowingly agree to the challenged restraint". In other words, if they didn't like the restriction of not being able to install Mac OS on non-Apple hardware, they could have purchased an alternative operating system instead.
Circling back to the iPhone and its app distribution aftermarket, it seems the same reasoning would apply here. If the iPhone EULA specifically states that customers can only install apps via the App Store, and the customer knowingly purchases the product knowing such limitations are in place, it seems very unlikely that a court would agree that "iOS App Distribution" is actually a relevant market for antitrust purposes.
C. The "iOS In-App Payment Processing Market"
On the other hand, the antitrust claims Epic makes regarding this market are much more compelling because unlike the app distribution market, customers have no information about the restrictions in the relationship between the developer and Apple, and they certainly did not agree to any such restrictions when they purchased their phones. Without a contractual restriction in place, the determination of whether the "iOS In-App Payment Processing Market" is a relevant market depends on multiple factors which I won't go into too much detail here or this post will be even longer than it already is, but suffice to say they have a much higher chance of successfully making this argument.
Epic also has a strong argument here that Apple requiring in-app payments to go through the App Store and taking a 30% cut of each payment directly harms consumers by increasing prices, and lacks any justification other than to hurt competition. And the rebuttal that you can buy a different product without this restriction falls flat because the other major product on the market also charges the same cut.
The upshot of all of this is it seems unlikely that Epic will be able to compel Apple to permit third-party app installation on the iPhone, but they may be able to successfully argue against the restriction that all in-app purchasing must go through the App Store.
[1] https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
[2] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh...
[3] https://casetext.com/case/metzler-v-bear-automotive-service-...
[4] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/attachments/us-submissions-...
[5] https://casetext.com/case/blizzard-entmt-inc-v-ceiling-fan-s...
Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store
#497Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That feels like using an existing monopoly (actually a duopoly w/ google's similar practices) to force developers to purchase products they don't want. Hey didn't want to accept payments via apple, but Apple's market power and decisions were focused on forcing them to. In order to sell goods in a place like Walmart, a manufacturer is subject to onerous terms. Why is the app store different than a retailer limiting…
Because you can buy the same exact item on Zalando and put it on fire if you want to Imagine if you could buy shoes only at Walmart because you bought the shoe rack there.
No you can't. Walmart often requires vendors to make a special Walmart-only version of their product. So there is nothing that's truly comparable.
Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store
#498"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…
This is a great picking apart of Apples justification but I think the issue that most irks everyone who’s not apologizing for Apple is where did this magic number 30% come from? Which market forces created it? Here on HN most of us probably feel that product manager at Apple licked their finger, felt the wind and said “Yeah 30% seems about the most we can get away with” And what irks even more is once Apple set the p…
The minimum price for an app was $0.99 as was the minimum in app purchase.
I am not saying it should scale as price scales to remain 30%.
Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store
#499Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store
#500Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apple's platforms aren't an open market either. They allow third party developers to develop for their platforms, subject to you agreeing to their terms.
Agreeing to a TOS is a standard for open markets. Splitting hairs over a TOS existing is ignoring the fact that Epic doesn't allow third parties to sell in their market (with or without a TOS).