Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple, Epic, and the App Store

stratechery.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

401–410 of 781 posts

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#401

Post by abc-xyz »

kartayyar wrote: post #279
enra wrote: post #236

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. C…

I don't get the whole objection to mutiple app stores. Instead of clicking icon A, I click icon B and if I get a cheaper game, all power to Epic. I don't spend time in an app store. I spend time playing the game.

Having everything locked behind a single App Store is the perfect way for the government to enforce bans without building a “great firewall”. It’s no coincidence that a few days after Trump signed an executive order to ban TikTok/WeChat then Epic (heavily backed by Tencent) engaged in a PR-focused lawsuit that would encourage Apple to allow side-loading apps, which, if implemented, would allow Chinese companies to easily bypass the ban. It’s also worth noting that apps are already violating people’s privacy in so many ways (the latest example is copying clipboard text while running in the background) - without the App Store then there’s no doubt that the privacy violations would become even worse.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#402

Post by atom-morgan »

myhf wrote: post #392
bttrfl wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following your logic, Fortnite's add-ons should clearly be free since the cost to make and sell them is minuscule in comparison to 400M Epic made in April alone [0]. [0] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s...

V-bucks should be banned completely, along with all other illegal gambling.

Unlike CS:GO, Fortnite skins aren't gambling.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#403

Post by Jommi »

misnome wrote: post #377
cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

I don't understand these arguments either. It's not illegal to have high product margins, right? Why can't they charge whatever they want? It comes across as pure moral "I don't like it" objection, which is fine, but don't use it as a legal argument.

High product margins are usually signs of monopolistic powers used, otherwise profits would slowly move towards cost as time goes forward.

This has not been the case with Apple.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#404

Post by yuvalr1 »

czhiddy wrote: post #378
naikrovek wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

If Apple has a monopoly on the iOS App Store market, then it follows that Epic has a monopoly on the Fortnite add-on market, right?

The difference is that if Fortnite abuses its power, it is relatively easy to build another MMORPG competitor. If Apple abuses its power, it's practically impossible to build another mobile platform to compete today. Even Microsoft failed with that.

The bottom line is that Fortnight can have practical competition (that for example offer 3rd party plugins or lower prices), while the iPhone only has Android as competition, which is taking the exact same 30% cut.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#405

Post by colejohnson66 »

danShumway wrote: post #303
lowbloodsugar wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you're frightened that another company might get control and... offer better terms than we have right now? While some people here might fall for this simple propaganda, I doubt the courts will. It is totally expected of Epic that they will at the same time make the claim about "freedom" and "choice" while signing exclusive deals so that customers are required to install the Epic store if they wish to play certain ga…

> while signing exclusive deals so that customers are required to install the Epic store if they wish to play certain games. A surprising number of people on Hackernews don't understand how Apple Arcade works. This isn't just specific to the mobile market. As an Open advocate and critic of DRM, it's been frustrating to watch gamers suddenly get very concerned about store choice and exclusives over the past few years,…

> Epic didn't take Fortnite off of the App store. If it's about your freedom, then talk to the people who did take it off.

This isn’t a good argument. Epic did something with the intention of getting removed from the store. Sure, Apple was the one who removed them, but Epic violates Apple’s TOS.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#406

Post by ghostwriter »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #344
rched wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't I've been seeing this argument a lot and it makes the assumption that allowing alternative app stores has no impact on people who choose not to use them. I don't think this is true. An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to c…

> An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to choose between not using the app or giving your credit card information to the app developer you may not trust. But then this is competitive pressure for Apple to charge lower fees and allow apps to handle payments themselves, at which point the ap…

> But then this is competitive pressure for Apple to charge lower fees and allow apps to handle payments themselves, at which point the app would be back in Apple's store because the customer prefers to buy it from there. Everyone benefits (except Apple).

No it isn't. The next moment Apple significantly lowers its comission, the same people will start whining about Apple "dumping the market" "to sink its competitors", and that it should be prosecuted under the same flawed anti-trust legislation. Been there, seen that: if your rates are too high you are a monopolist; if your rates are low you are dumping; and if your rates are the same as of your competitors then there's a "collusion".

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#407

Post by yokto »

misnome wrote: post #377
cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

I don't understand these arguments either. It's not illegal to have high product margins, right? Why can't they charge whatever they want? It comes across as pure moral "I don't like it" objection, which is fine, but don't use it as a legal argument.

It's about balancing the market. That's why anti-trust exists. Would you want an insulin monopoly to be able to have 95% margin? Probably not. That's why it's illegal.

Too many usinesses can't live without access to iPhone users.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#408

Post by cromwellian »

Spivak wrote: post #374
cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

I don't really think it's about the number. I try not to think about these kinds of things in terms of what different companies "deserve." Apple can get away with demanding a 30% cut on their platform and they do so without much arm twisting. Nobody has to support macOS or iOS, and both developers and customers can completely ignore their existence. They'll be missing out on a lucrative customer base but that's true…

Is Nike so far ahead of every other shoe manufacturer? What's the margin on a pair of Nikes? How many young kids waste family money on a brand who makes the shoes for a fraction in Southeast Asia. How about Christian Louboutain?

There's also the sunk cost for many people. If you've bought tons of content in the App Store, you'd have to rebuy everything if you switched to another ecosystem. For the same reason, if you own proprietary camera lens for Camera Body A, you are not likely to dump all your photo equipment even if a Camera Body B comes out that is cheaper and better.

Path dependency. We learned this lesson once with the Wintel duopoly. Then with the Web, from about 1994 to 2007, we had broke the shackles. And now, people are happy to enslave themselves again, and vigorously defend their servitude.

Apple makes great hardware and software. They don't need this.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#409

Post by geerlingguy »

harryf wrote: post #391
cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

This is a great picking apart of Apples justification but I think the issue that most irks everyone who’s not apologizing for Apple is where did this magic number 30% come from? Which market forces created it? Here on HN most of us probably feel that product manager at Apple licked their finger, felt the wind and said “Yeah 30% seems about the most we can get away with” And what irks even more is once Apple set the p…

There is precedent; the rate was actually much higher in previous mobile app stores (e.g. Symbian and ring tone stores).

Additionally, there is related precedent in areas like publishing (ebook stores usually charge 30% or more commission).

I don't think 30% is outlandish, though I do think it would be nice if Apple reduced that cut, especially if they wanted to consider some form of graduated rate.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#410

Post by outworlder »

yuvalr1 wrote: post #404
czhiddy wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple has a monopoly on the iOS App Store market, then it follows that Epic has a monopoly on the Fortnite add-on market, right?

The difference is that if Fortnite abuses its power, it is relatively easy to build another MMORPG competitor. If Apple abuses its power, it's practically impossible to build another mobile platform to compete today. Even Microsoft failed with that. The bottom line is that Fortnight can have practical competition (that for example offer 3rd party plugins or lower prices), while the iPhone only has Android as competit…

> it is relatively easy to build another MMORPG competitor.

Oh no it isn't. There are very few successful (and even fewer wildly successful) MMORPGs and countless failed attempts.

Games are not really fungible. It's not like I'm going to go out of Fortnite to buy items in WoW instead and treat them as the same. They are two completely different markets.

> The bottom line is that Fortnight can have practical competition (that for example offer 3rd party plugins or lower prices)

No, unless things change, you need to use the Epic store.

Post reply on HN