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Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

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Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#391
From Epic's filing, here is an excerpt from Apple's notice listing the Developer Program features that Epic will lose access to when its membership is terminated:

    - All Apple software, SDKs, APIs, and developer tools
    - Pre-release versions of iOS, iPad OS, macOS, tvOS, watchOS
    - Pre-release versions of beta tools such as Reality Composer, Create ML, Apple Configurator, etc.
    - Notarization service for macOS apps
    - App Store Connect platform and support (for example, assistance with account transition, password reset, app name issues)
    - TestFlight
    - Access to provisioning portal for certificate generation, and provisioning profile generation
    - Ability to enable Apple services in-app (i.e. Apple Pay, CloudKit, PassKit, Music Kit, HomeKit, Push Notifications, Siri Shortcuts, Sign in with Apple, kernel extensions, FairPlay Streaming)
    - Access to Apple-issued keys for connecting to services such as MusicKit, DeviceCheck, APNs, CloudKit, Wallet
    - Access to Developer ID signing certificates and Kernel Extension signing certificates - Developer Technical Support
    - Participation in Universal App Quick Start Program, including the right to use the Developer Transition Kit (which must be returned to Apple)
    - Engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performance of Unreal Engine on Mac and iOS hardware; optimize Unreal Engine on the Mac for creative workflows, virtual sets and their CI/Build Systems; and adoption and support of ARKit features and future VR features into Unreal Engine by their XR team
The final item is very specific to Unreal Engine so it is clear that this is not simply a template e-mail and was crafted specifically for Epic. Thus we can assume that Apple legal, marketing, the executive team, etc. have pored over every line intently (despite misspelling iPadOS).

My guess is that this is intended to enumerate everything that Apple contributes to earn its 30% cut.

Epic themselves have now entered this list into the legal record, claiming that it would be incredibly damaging for them to lose access to these features. Perhaps it is now harder for them to argue that Apple's cut is excessive.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#392
I'm not surprised by this.

From Apples perspective, Epic meaningfully bypassed key terms of the App store which have been in force since the App store was created. Epic then turned around and sued Apple. It also became clear they were planning for this sequence to occur, in effect, trying to publicly shame Apple. I think I would be surprised if Apple DIDN'T suspend their accounts. The signing on Mac is just a side effect of loosing dev tools due to Epic's actions. Maybe they should have sued first before taking action that would get them suspended.

That said, I am glad someone with the means is pushing back against the 30% App Store rates. I value what Apple provides, but it is excessive for a general computing device (unlike an XBOX, Leapfrog, etc).

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#393
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very flimsy definition of the difference. Game consoles are generally much more powerful general-purpose PCs that can do everything an iPhone can do (except connecting to cell networks). They tend to be full multimedia consumption devices and can also manage other electronics in your home (lights, security cameras, etc.). Any supposed benefit iPhone owners would gain from being able to run unsigned code woul…

True, but your Tesla has a super-powerful general purpose computer in it that connects to cell networks, and is likely way more powerful. Nobody's going to argue a Tesla is a PC.

I'm curious how someone could argue that Apple's App Store rules are anticompetitve and that they should be forced to change them, while also arguing that the same doesn't apply to Tesla's media computer(s). Is it just because there are more iPhones than Teslas?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#394
post #8
post #2

This clearly and unambiguously crosses the line into abuse of market power. Apple's actions before? Maybe? Sort of? Apple needed that 30 percent cut to monitor for fraud and quality or something, going above-and-beyond other payment processors. This? This has absolutely no basis in anything. It's simple retaliation designed to kneecap Epic from Apple's dominant control of a market. Apple can refuse to let Epic releas…

Companies shouldn't be allowed to fire customers that blatantly break rules the customer agreed to?

When the rules themselves are illegal? No, no they should not.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#395
post #315
post #2

This clearly and unambiguously crosses the line into abuse of market power. Apple's actions before? Maybe? Sort of? Apple needed that 30 percent cut to monitor for fraud and quality or something, going above-and-beyond other payment processors. This? This has absolutely no basis in anything. It's simple retaliation designed to kneecap Epic from Apple's dominant control of a market. Apple can refuse to let Epic releas…

So, Epic should get special treatment? They don't have to pay the fees? Just everyone else? How is apple supposed to run the app store? They kinda know what they are doing or why else would so many people buy their iphones?

> They kinda know what they are doing or why else would so many people buy their iphones?

Or maybe it's something that people merely tolerate. Kind of like how ISPs are almost universally derided in the US for crappy service and high prices, yet everyone seems to be paying for their serivece. If you asked people when they're buying an iphone whether they want 30% of app and in-app purchases to go to apple, with no way around it, how much % of them would say yes?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#396

What took me aback was the withdrawing permission to notarise their apps for Mac. That was only meant to be a check for known vulnerabilities/malicious software. Apple was more within their rights to kick Fortnite until the dust has settled from the iOS store, that was the retaliation, but now a mechanism supposedly for security has been repurposed as punishment. That's a pretty nasty move and I feel the mask has sli…

And so that's why I never liked nor trusted this whole idea of code signing with non-self-signed certificates, especially on desktop OSes. This notarization mechanism introduced a single point of failure: Apple. And now there is concrete evidence of how exactly this is bad. On a device I own, there should be no parties that are trusted more than myself. It's ridiculous I even have to write this.

It's important to note that you can still run unsigned Mac apps. Apple isn't preventing users from running a tool they want to run, it's just showing them a big scary warning and making them jump through some extra hoops.

It's incredibly scummy and inappropriate, but I would put it more along the lines of an attack-ad than an outright ban.

Edit: Now, one thing that isn't totally clear is whether or not devs who have their own developer accounts, and use Unreal Engine to target iOS, can still make iOS builds. If not that's a much bigger deal, though the fundamental issue would still lie with iOS, not macOS.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#397
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't install unsigned apps. The notion that the platform owner is somehow doing you a favor by denying you that choice is nothing but a manifestation of Stockholm Syndrome in action.

That advice might be feasible for the average HN reader, but what about the average person? How resistant do you think they will be against a social engineering attack telling them to disable code signing?

Some sites have big scary warnings if you try to open the dev console in the page for this reason. I don't know how well that works though.

We can put all the warnings on bleach we want, someone out there is still going to drink it.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#399
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but your Tesla has a super-powerful general purpose computer in it that connects to cell networks, and is likely way more powerful. Nobody's going to argue a Tesla is a PC.

I'm curious how someone could argue that Apple's App Store rules are anticompetitve and that they should be forced to change them, while also arguing that the same doesn't apply to Tesla's media computer(s). Is it just because there are more iPhones than Teslas?

FWIW I personally don't.

However, I see the argument to be made that in selling a Mac or an iPhone, you're being sold a general-purpose computing device with explicit value added by third-party software vendors. Also, on macOS, you were sold the explicit ability to run whatever software you want. It's purpose is to run software from third-parties.

When you bought a Tesla, that wasn't how the car was represented to you. It's purpose is to drive, and yeah it's got a sweet big screen that happens to run apps, but that's ancillary.

Legally, I think that matters. From a free-software perspective, I agree, I would also like to run whatever I want on my car.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#400

From a preliminary statement of Epic's motion: > Just over two weeks ago, Apple’s CEO Tim Cook was asked during a Congressional hearing whether Apple has “ever retaliated against or disadvantaged a developer who went public about their frustrations with the App Store”. Mr. Cook testified, “We do not retaliate or bully people. It’s strongly against our company culture.”

This isn't retaliation though for Epic going on Twitter and being angry about the App Store practices, or the situation like Hey where the was a lot of press and negativity. Epic breached the terms of the agreement for their app, so their app was removed from the App Store. Other than needing to fix their app to no longer be in violation of the guidelines, they could have cured that breach of the contract. Instead Ep…

Just because two parties agree to a few things, it doesn't necessarily mean those things are enforceable or even legal.

If that were the case, the entire field of contract law wouldn't exist.

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