Meditation is a powerful tool that probably most of the world can't use to its full potential, otherwise they'd be a literal saint, like Maharaj-ji.
Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
201–210 of 295 posts
Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
#202The term "meditation" has such a fuzzy meaning these days. It really refers to prolonged concentration on something. We do this all the time. Yogis or occultists refine the term further into 3 stages: a brief concentration, a prolonged concentration (i.e. meditation) on something real and tangible like a symbol, and meditation on the idea behind that something real and tangible. Knowledge workers are very familiar with meditation, although they don't recognize it as a special activity. However that 3rd stage is unattainable for most people today: ideas are qualitatevily different. Mastering meditation on ideas switches mind into a special state. From that point directing mind at things like sun, moon, light or more abstract ideas like the relationship between space and sound produces significant effects or just summons ideas and thoughts about them. This is how great scientists make discoveries: they direct their mind at some topic and summon ideas about it (they don't produce ideas with induction or deduction) and then they materialise ideas into more tangible math.
Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
#203I've been practicing meditation for several years now. The phenomenon described in the article is very obvious to every practitioner - it can happen that for some time you will feel worse (actually I'm surprised that it's only 8%). It is related to psychological mechanisms of repression, which is weakened during meditation practices. That is why during serious meditation retreats (like 10 days vipassana) some people…
I just want to add that for some people the 'freak out' is psychosis, or other serious mental condition that needs immediate treatment. There are many people who come into meditation to fix something because they have a sense that something is going wrong with them. Meditation has become very popular and there is strong incentive to avoid mentioning possible negatives. Then you just ship out damaged people from the b…
Psychosis triggered by a very unexpected and emotionally strong event doesn't need immediate treatment. You may put yourself back together in a short amount of time and actually getting help may be worse in the long run as you will probably start adjusting variables in your life, like taking meds or getting closer or more distant to particular people, that not necessarily lead to the self-improvement you need.
The whole point of those long retreats is to be able to push yourself to those limits knowing that you will have some days to rest after and that people that are used to handling psychotic people after they had a reveal or something will be around to help you.
Of course as mostly everything that involves a 10 day long gathering with idiosyncratic strangers you need to be careful.
Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. That's a very broad statement given that there are many different types of meditations with different aims, religious/non-religious, with varying degrees of scientific evidence. What I can say is, that mindfulness-based interventions, where meditation usually represents the formal "training" aspect, have…
I know it can seem like a middlebrow dismissal to ask for supporting evidence, but in this case I think it’s important. You’ve dismissed the parents view (and import of the linked article) as overly broad, and you have asserted the existence of an evidence base to support this. Is there any summary of this evidence that you think is compelling?
> Is there any summary of this evidence that you think is compelling?
The meta-analyses in [1] are a good starting point. Note that in particular in a clinical setting, the intervention usually comprise more than just the meditation aspects, e.g. psycho-education, a group setting, or some form of body movement.
You can find further evidence if you pick a specific intervention, e.g. Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) [2], which is considered the ancestor of modern mindfulness-based interventions.
However, you might find it more compelling to learn about the mechanism rather than effectiveness. In that case an interesting starting point are the studies that have been done on Buddhist monks as "extreme points" in the set of meditators, e.g. see the references in [3].
Regarding the original article, I find the title a bit clickbaity (X can worsen depression and anxiety is true for almost all X, in particular doing nothing can worsen depression and anxiety!) and it is a bit concerning to me that the author does not differentiate between mindfulness and meditation.
I couldn't find the paper from the article, my understanding is that 8 % of subjects reported adverse effects when doing a self-guided mindfulness meditation. I find 8 % quite low - 92 % did not report adverse effects?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_researc... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_stress_reduc... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard
Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
#205It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…
"meditation is a religious practice" this statement of your is enough to prove that you are motivated by theory that your book is the only one and everything else is false or satonic. Meditation will really help you, you should try.
Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
#206Correct if wrong but this study sample included people who meditated at least once a week for at least two months? There's the problem. Meditation is a daily exercise conducted for at least 20 minutes. You won't be able to apply meditation-acquired skills, such as anxiety reduction, until a foundation is established-- at least 2 months, but probably more. Just as the benefits of a diet and exercise take time to work, so too does a disciplined meditation regiment.
Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
#207The end goal of mindfulness is to make you realize you have no free will and that you don't exist. I wish more people understood that. Losing the illusion you have free will is the real danger behind mindfulness, because the practice leaves you there with nowhere to go.
Having your mind "run away with bad thoughts," while it sounds bad, isn't directly related to the fundamental issue of mindlessness, and could happen with any type of meditation.
Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
#208It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…
"major changes in cognition can go either way. Be careful!"
I read some spiritual books about LSD in my late teens and I almost believed the "holy spiritual drug changing consciousness" motive.
But I was cautious and never took it and wanted to wait for the right time (it never came so far). One of the main reasons of waiting longer was, that I met some LSD gurus in real live - who where just retards.
So I focused more on staying clear .. but a bit later I also met quite some "clear" people who never do or did drugs, but only meditated - and they were also so disconnected from reality, I found it even quite faszinating. Not illuminated. Just disconnected.
So, when I meditate, my focus is to connect more to reality. And to find a balance between it all. Drugs can be tools. Various meditation technics can be tools. Nothing is the universal golden way. Find the right balance of technics, that works for you. That is my takeaway after quite some years exploring the area.
Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
“which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being.” This is very important to point out and I think is actually the big trap when approaching meditative practices. I fell into this nihilism trap when I was starting meditation in college and I abandoned my practice almost completely for the next 10 or so years. It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. The latter is an e…
Why are we saying nihilism is bad?
Because it is not conducive to maintaining any kind of organized group of human beings.
The idea that "life is meaningless" means that society cannot rely on you, because you'll do whatever strikes your fancy, whatever the consequences.
Worse, it is also a philosophy that contributes absolutely nothing to actually understanding the nature of the world, which is kind of the point of philosophy.
In short, nihilists are utterly useless, to themselves and the world. On the upside, they won't care.
Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety
#210I liken it to exercise. Too much and you strain your brain past its ability to repair. Yes you can overtrain your brain. You also need to take nutrition into account. You can hit the gym every day but if you don't dial in your nutrients, you won't see any improvement or worse, a degradation.