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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

stratechery.com

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#341

Post by MR4D »

izacus wrote: post #311
MR4D wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We want multiple stores on iOS. No no no no no no!!!!!! It's this type of thinking that has caused me to have more freaking messaging and video apps on my phone so I can talk to everyone: Zoom, Skype, Meet, Meetings, Facetime, Messenger, Chime,...etc, etc. etc. NO. I ABSOLUTELY do not want that. Freaking nightmare. When that happens I ditch my iPhone and buy a flip phone. Seriously - stop the insanity. There is no…

Are you also living in a crippling fear because you have the ability to buy things in multiple stores in your city? Is that a nightmare as well?

Ha! That was pretty funny. :)

But actually, there is a big difference - I can buy jeans anywhere. I can buy Levi jeans anywhere.

If I had to go to Macy’s so that I could get a shirt (with no alternative), and then had to go to Nordstrom to get socks (with no alternative), and then..... then yeah, that would be crippling.

There is a reason amazon and Walmart are so powerful - you can get anything in one stop.

Bundling is important. It’s why people buy Comcast xfinity cable + internet or have all their family on one cell phone plan - it’s reduces effort, stress, and cognitive load.

Apple vs Android is good choice. Having to go to ten app stores to get my apps is not - it’s just a pain in the butt masquerading as “choice”.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#342

Post by ericmay »

Slartie wrote: post #325
ericmay wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and…

> Right, and the rest of us don't want that Please stop speaking for others. I would certainly like to have the ability to install other sources for apps. Since I am part of "the rest of us", for any kind of "us" that came to my mind while reading your posting ("iPhone users" or "Apple customers" or "HN readers"), your statement is patently false. > That's not what I want on my iPhone. Then don't install additional s…

> Please stop speaking for others.

Same to you and the GP here. And last I checked there aren’t a lot of customers really complaining about the App Store. It’s just big companies who, although they could have done this years ago, are now going against Apple’s customer protection because it degrades their crappy business practices.

> Then don’t install additional stores

Then buy a different phone?

I want any app that doesn’t follow Apple’s guidelines to be completely banned. Goodbye Epic. Nice knowing you. Don’t care. I don’t want apps spying on me, engaging in shitty business practices, scamming customers, and doing bad things. Apple is working to protect my privacy and safety. They’re not perfect, but that’s why I buy an iPhone and I want it to stay that way. If I wanted another App Store I’d buy a different phone, like you should.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#343

Post by lozaning »

FactolSarin wrote: post #83
jasode wrote: post #6

In the spirit of this particular story, I'd like to ask HN the following question: Should closed hardware (that owns its entire stack) even be legal to sell? Yes, it's legal today but should we make it illegal? To try another example besides Apple iPhone, consider the $35000 Prima Cinema movie server to play 1st run movies at home on day of release: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22prima+cinema%22&source=ln... In m…

While I'm sympathetic to this idea, one thing that I get hung up on is game consoles. I enjoy multiplayer shooters, and I like knowing that none of my opponents are using bots. So the fact that the console is locked down is part of the value proposition for me. It's a pro, rather than a con.

FYI you can reboot every retail xbox into DEV mode and run your own games and code:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devki...

Switching back and forth between retail and DEV mode is as easy as rebooting.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#344

Post by AnthonyMouse »

rched wrote: post #337
kelnos wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't own an iPhone in large part because I cannot install an alternative app store or install non-Apple approved apps. > Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want tha…

> If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't I've been seeing this argument a lot and it makes the assumption that allowing alternative app stores has no impact on people who choose not to use them. I don't think this is true. An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to c…

> An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to choose between not using the app or giving your credit card information to the app developer you may not trust.

But then this is competitive pressure for Apple to charge lower fees and allow apps to handle payments themselves, at which point the app would be back in Apple's store because the customer prefers to buy it from there. Everyone benefits (except Apple).

Meanwhile if you don't want to give the app your credit card number, you still don't have to. Refuse until they use Apple's payment method. If most users share your unwillingness then developers will still have to use a payment method you do trust. If they don't, what right do you have to constrain the choices of the other users?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#345

Post by enragedcacti »

jdminhbg wrote: post #328
kelnos wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't own an iPhone in large part because I cannot install an alternative app store or install non-Apple approved apps. > Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want tha…

> Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want that curation, you still get it. Apple users care because if non-App Store distribution methods are banned, then developers are forced to go through Apple's process to get access to them. You can see complaints around this thread about how…

If it provides that much consumer value then people shouldn't be worried about a little bit of competition. This feels more to me like a certain subset of users siding with Apple because their values happen to align with Apple's avenue for generating profit from the App Store.

If Apple's goal was protecting their consumers, they could easily roll back the contested parts of their policy while protecting consumers AND still make a profit.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#346

Post by MR4D »

sprafa wrote: post #321
MR4D wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's go with this for a start: https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/07/30/facebook-says-app... Also, notice that FB has done everything possible to gather information. Frankly, the NSA should just hire FB to do their work - it'b be faster and cheaper. Locking stuff down is hard. Doing it with multiple app stores will be impossible.

Isn’t PRISM basically using FB to do NSA work for them anyhow?

Probably. Which was kinda my point - monitoring these rule breakers is hard.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#347

Post by ucarion »

tc wrote: post #41

Here's the thing. Even if you're OK with Apple (or whoever) controlling what you can run on your computers, this is a centralization of power that will be co-opted. Let's say that Australia wants to ban consumer encryption. This would currently be difficult to enforce for PC software. But on mobile, this is easy. Just make Apple and Google enforce it! Make them ban such apps from their stores. Now you've achieved per…

Lest your comment suggest the author of this article isn't aware of this point, he has made this argument precisely:

> Whereas China needed to control country-wide Internet access to achieve its censorship goals, Apple and Google have helpfully provided the Indian government with a one-stop shop. This also, for better or worse, gives a roadmap for how the U.S. government could respond to TikTok, if it chose to: there is no need to build a great firewall — simply give the order to Apple and Google. Centralization, at least from a central government’s perspective, has its uses.

https://stratechery.com/2020/india-bans-chinese-apps-the-app...

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#348

Post by danShumway »

y7 wrote: post #323
enragedcacti wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...just don't use other app stores? Honest question, what do you lose by other people having the option?

Because it leads to fragmentation. If developers have a choice of app stores, then users have to install ALL app stores if they want access to the entire market. This happened with streaming services as well: when Netflix was the only prominent one, only that subscription was enough. Now you also need Amazon, Hulu, etc.

> then users have to install ALL app stores if they want access to the entire market

You didn't have access to the entire market when Netflix was the only store. You had access to Netflix's market, and all of the other shows that are currently being funded by competitors didn't exist.

You could still use only Netflix today if you wanted to. The only difference is that now you are aware of what you are missing.

How many developers have consciously chosen to abandon the entire mobile market because of how toxic it is, because of how tailored the market is to a very specific sub-genre of mass-market apps and games? How many developers have abandoned iOS because their games touched on political or serious topics that Apple decided weren't suitable for their store? Many of us are not interested in creating the types of apps that thrive on the current mobile app stores, so we've abandoned the mobile market entirely.

When you can only see a tiny part of the world, you think that you have access to all of it. Once the walls get taken down and you realize how big the world is, then you realize how much of it you didn't have.

I completely sympathize with the frustration of not being able to get access to some of this stuff. I won't sign up for Netflix because of their DRM and anti-consumer practices. There are some shows I can't watch because of that. Trust me, I get the pain.

But having only one streaming platform forever would have been worse. So much of the original content that's coming out on Netflix only exists because Netflix had to compete. There are really good shows that are HBO/Hulu/Disney+ originals. I want that media to exist, even if I can't personally get at it right now.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#349

Post by sercand »

fungos wrote: post #329
sercand wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> consumers end up paying more for the apps because the app developers have to increase their price to cover Apple's cut. I don’t think so. When we determined our app’s monthly price we have A/B tested several price like $5/month, $8/month, $15/month. And we have chosen the one that we earned most (It was the expensive one). If the Apple’s cut will become 10%, we won’t change our price because would earn less. Theref…

Nice to know, so they can happily charge 95% from your app?

Oh no, they should close the App Store where my business lives and we should return to iPhoneOS 1 era.

When we returned to iPhoneOS 1 era, all of us should just develop PWA websites without dealing with 30% cut.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#350

Post by enragedcacti »

rched wrote: post #337
kelnos wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't own an iPhone in large part because I cannot install an alternative app store or install non-Apple approved apps. > Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want tha…

> If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't I've been seeing this argument a lot and it makes the assumption that allowing alternative app stores has no impact on people who choose not to use them. I don't think this is true. An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to c…

This view is equally flawed in my opinion. How many apps do you not have access to because their business model doesn't align with giving 30% of the revenue away, or is entirely banned a la XCloud?
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