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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#231

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #155
zepto wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t a clear argument. Many customers and developers want the service the App Store provides and are willing to pay for it. I.e. it’s not a shakedown, it’s a service just like any other. But even if you argue that people should be allowed to have someone else provide a different service (which is technically problematic since they will still need to use Apple’s API’s), there is no reason to presume that more st…

They might want the App Store, we don't if they're willing to pay for it because they have no choice. And it's absolutely a shakedown. It's not a service, it's a requirement. A service implies app developers have options. They do not. Apple could raise the price to 70% of the revenue and app developers would have no choice but to pay. It's not much different than the mob saying "it'd be a shame if this business went…

The App Store is as much the product as the iPhone.

Without the app store the iPhone is literally just a piece of hardware. The idea that the App Store isn't a product in and of itself is a falsehood.

> A service implies app developers have options. They do not.

They do - it's called Android.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#232

Post by ahnick »

giantrobot wrote: post #186
bluedevil2k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

actual harm => consumers end up paying more for the apps because the app developers have to increase their price to cover Apple's cut (which is more like a shakedown). I don't see any reason why a company needs to pay any percent of their revenue instead of a flat fee. You pay a % of revenue when someone is your partner or an investor in your company. Apple is neither. In fact, they've shown to be the opposite of a t…

I'm super amused by people bemoaning Apple's cut of sales on the App Store. I remember mobile software before the App Store. Buying software for a Palm or PocketPC device was a fucking shit show. There were multiple competing stores and sometimes even the developer's own site. The prices were ridiculous, partly because everyone had to implement their own payment and distribution systems. If the software didn't work o…

Prices are set by what the market will bear

That's the entire issue right there. When Apple is the market, then they can make it whatever they want. If Apple has to legitimately compete with other "App Stores", then the market will find a lower price than 30%.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#233

Post by donarb »

zaksoup wrote: post #62
orliesaurus wrote: post #14

Okay this is going to sound stupid but maybe someone else feels like me about it: I don't understand why Apple has to take such a big chunk from transactions of in-app purchases? Similarly Google. Why 30%? Why not 5%? That feels like it would be more honest. Is it just because "they can"?

This is something I hadn't thought about until the article pointed it out. According to the first link in google ( https://www.braze.com/blog/in-app-purchase-stats/ ) the average iOS IAP in 2017 was $1.08. If you compare that to Square and Stripe's fee structure then the processing fees charged by the credit card processors is about 25%. This means Apple's taking for themselves much closer to a 5% cut which seems muc…

Apple provides a ton of services besides the credit card processing.

  - 24/7 worldwide availability, instant payment/app download
  - Easy re-install after deletion, you still own the app even if deleted
  - Region restriction
  - Separate app pricing by region
  - Revenues paid to developer from multiple region currencies without
    conversion fees
  - Tax calculation and collection
  - Customer refunds
  - User rankings and reviews
  - App store advertising in category listings
  - Video previews of the app in operation
  - Packaging of media content allowing developers the ability to load game
    levels as needed. This allows a user to start playing your game quickly.
  - App sales stats

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#234

Post by spanhandler »

romanoderoma wrote: post #208
spanhandler wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't address the issue: those who would can't. Then buy any other general computing product on the market. I'd be more sympathetic to this concern if Android didn't exist. Meanwhile it does, and the users who picked Apple did it because they don't care about this, they don't care very much about this, or because they actively want the App Store restrictions and the ecosystem that they create. > You don't lo…

> Then buy any other general computing product on the market That's not how free market works. And it's a very silly objection. Android is a licensed platform.from Google, but Google does not make the majority of devices. Apple manufacturs the devices, but they sell them to me locked in the ecosystem they profit from. Imagine being unable of refueling because your car does not work with standard oil pumps and you had…

> That's not how free market works.

It... isn't? How not?

> Imagine being unable of refueling because your car does not work with standard oil pumps and you had to go to Apple licensed gas station whom Apple charges 30% to.

Then I'd probably buy a competing brand of car, if that bothered me? You know, one of my other choices on the market? Like how there are a bunch of Android device vendors and a couple Linux mobile vendors that I could choose if Apple's App Store model bothered me, rather than being something I actively want? I am 100% not following how this isn't a market working. The choices people are making may not be the ones you prefer—happens to me all the time with markets—but there are choices.

> That's exactly what many want from Apple.

> Change the rules.

Many developers and publishers, maybe. I'm very much unconvinced that's what the subset of users who are aware of this issue in the first place, want, for the most part. I think if it were a major problem for them they'd have bought an Android device, or something else.

> If they can't allow sideloading, they're not as good as I thought.

They do allow sideloading, it's just fairly inconvenient. They can't allow a form of it that's convenient enough to allow other app stores to thrive, without changing the character of the ecosystem for their users. I don't think any amount of being "good" at what they do would change that.

> If Apple sold Android powered iPhones you would still buy an iPhone, you're are buying the brand, not the product.

OK, cool, guess continuing this exchange is pointless.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#235

Post by saurik »

GeekyBear wrote: post #123
Despegar wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nope. If a person "owns" a piece of hardware, it should be legal to jailbreak it without any consequences (except perhaps lack of support for 3rd party software) and companies that sell products that build off of jailbroken products should be 100% legal. All of those things are true today. The question was: >Should closed hardware (that owns its entire stack) even be legal to sell? And the answer to that is: obvious…

Correct. It's been perfectly legal since 2010. >The U.S. Librarian of Congress ruled on Monday that consumers who circumvent digital protections on smartphones to install unapproved applications—a practice often colloquially known as “jailbreaking”—for noninfringing reasons should be exempted from prosecution under the anti-circumvention section of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). https://www.macworld.com…

If you can figure it out, you can jailbreak it; but there is no reason why jailbreaking a device is inherently possible: jailbreaks for iOS are happening later and later in the boot cycle and so are more and more limited, and we have had a single bootrom exploit in like a decade. If you want to be able to jailbreak a device it must be illegal to lock it down like that, not merely legal for someone to figure out how to maybe break the lock after you build it.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#236

Post by enra »

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. Clearly they are not welcoming to competition themselves.

Buying games on PC now means that you have to install 5 different app stores which are usually slow, buggy and not that well written cross-platform code (pretty much like Fortnite itself).

Tencent is also 40% shareholder in Epic, and there has been criticism on Epic sending user data back to China.

> In early December 2018, Epic Games announced that it would open a digital storefront to challenge Steam by using a 12% revenue split rather than Steam's 30%.[20] Epic also said that it would not impose digital rights management (DRM) restrictions on games sold through its platform.[20] The store opened days later, on December 6, 2018, as part of the Game Awards, with a handful of games and a short list of upcoming titles.[21][22] The store was open for macOS and Windows platforms before expanding to Android and other platforms.[20] Epic aims to release a storefront for Android devices, bypassing the Google Play Store, where it will similarly only take a 12% cut compared to Google's 30%. While Apple, Inc.'s monopoly on iOS currently makes it impossible for Epic to release an App Store there, analysts believe that if Google reacts to Epic's App Store by reducing their cut, Apple will be pressured to follow suit.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#237

Post by [deleted] »

appleflaxen wrote: post #87
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #11

A pretty well-thought out article, given the inflammatory nature of the subject matter. I think Apple is right on the line. But I don't see a good argument as to what their doing is being anti-competitive. ~2 million apps are on the app store. Charging a fee for giving developers a huge market that spends money is not exactly unfair. And the rules of engagement are generally applied equally to everyone - the exceptio…

the solution is conceptually easy: carve the app store out of apple, and make it a separate company if there is no monopoly, then little will change. if there is, then consumers will win.

[deleted]

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#238

Post by modeless »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #176
modeless wrote: post #103

It's a common meme that "With a free service you're not the customer, you're the product." Well, you may be Apple's customer at the beginning when you pay for the phone, but immediately afterward you become their product. You're being sold for the 30% tax. And to enforce that tax Apple maintains ultimate control over the hardware you supposedly bought, blocking you from doing things that would threaten Apple's revenu…

> "...immediately afterward you become their product. You're being sold for the 30% tax." I don't understand the argument you're attempting. Apple doesn't sell my info "for the 30% tax." In fact, they charge app developers that 30% and then keep my data away from those same developers.

Apple sells access to your wallet, not data, similarly to how ad-supported services sell access to your eyeballs, not data.

To exclude other companies from accessing your wallet Apple must control the software running on your phone, which means blocking you from installing or modifying software on the device you supposedly own.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#239

Post by pwinnski »

haunter wrote: post #195

People don't get the console difference I have a PS4 I can buy the game digitally from Sony I can buy the digital code which activates on PS4 from Amazon or sometimes even straight from the publisher I can buy a physical copy from countless retail stores both off and online from Walmart to BestBuy to Amazon to Gamestop I can sell my used physical copy on Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, or Craigslist This is the differenc…

Every one of those other than the used physical copy involves a large cut to Sony.

It is true, there is no physical media for Android or iOS purchases.

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