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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

stratechery.com

121–130 of 781 posts

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#121
post #109
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That feels like using an existing monopoly (actually a duopoly w/ google's similar practices) to force developers to purchase products they don't want. Hey didn't want to accept payments via apple, but Apple's market power and decisions were focused on forcing them to. In order to sell goods in a place like Walmart, a manufacturer is subject to onerous terms. Why is the app store different than a retailer limiting…

Target is across the street from Walmart. But if someone has an iPhone they cannot shop at the Google Play store.

And Android, the only other realistic option, has effectively the same policies. Technically you can side load or use an alternative app store, but that means you don't get Play Services. And it's pretty impractical to develop apps without using those services.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#122

It's weird how Epic has no problem with closed hardware consoles...

I'm sure they do but the situation is a bit different. Its a bigger leap for the consoles to implement a third party store than Apple. They don't allow unsigned code on consumer devices and the cert process is even more entailed than Apple. There's no tooling or infrastructure to install third party apps onto the consoles outside of the first party store. Apple has a ready made developer flow that is artificially blocked through provisioning profiles and the like.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#123
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. If a person "owns" a piece of hardware, it should be legal to jailbreak it without any consequences (except perhaps lack of support for 3rd party software) and companies that sell products that build off of jailbroken products should be 100% legal. Edge case products like Prima Cinema can simply lease the hardware with restrictions on how can be used under the terms of the lease. If Apple feels so strongly abou…

>Nope. If a person "owns" a piece of hardware, it should be legal to jailbreak it without any consequences (except perhaps lack of support for 3rd party software) and companies that sell products that build off of jailbroken products should be 100% legal. All of those things are true today. The question was: >Should closed hardware (that owns its entire stack) even be legal to sell? And the answer to that is: obvious…

Correct. It's been perfectly legal since 2010.

>The U.S. Librarian of Congress ruled on Monday that consumers who circumvent digital protections on smartphones to install unapproved applications—a practice often colloquially known as “jailbreaking”—for noninfringing reasons should be exempted from prosecution under the anti-circumvention section of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).

https://www.macworld.com/article/1152935/jailbreak_exemption...

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#124
post #6

In the spirit of this particular story, I'd like to ask HN the following question: Should closed hardware (that owns its entire stack) even be legal to sell? Yes, it's legal today but should we make it illegal? To try another example besides Apple iPhone, consider the $35000 Prima Cinema movie server to play 1st run movies at home on day of release: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22prima+cinema%22&source=ln... In m…

> Yes, it's legal today but should we make it illegal? IMO, yes. We make it illegal for someone to come into your home and take your stuff, which ends up with you losing control over it (you have no more access to your stuff), so it also makes sense to make it illegal for someone to decide to not allow you install or modify the stuff you have (again taking control away from you). The way most of these platforms run i…

> We make it illegal for someone to come into your home and take your stuff

It's not illegal however if you signed a contract to that effect, which is what you did when you started using the platform.

A better analogy is that you're renting some furniture and the furniture is found to be unsafe. The company can come and take it away, either replacing it with something else or refunding you.

In the software world nobody but the creators or IP holders of the software actually owns the software. They just provide you the license to use it.

It's illegal in many countries to modify the software so if you had a closed-source word processing application it would be illegal to mod it or to use it as part of a data transformation pipeline. You can only use it for the purposes stated when you bought it.

If there was a way to limit your oven to bake recipes the manufacturer allowed or to use specific approved ingredients, and would come with some sort of value-add to make consumers ignore that as a problem, I'm sure someone would actually do this.

(please note that I am stating facts as I see them and not necessarily agreeing with the state of affairs)

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#125
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Who?

Not my sole reason, but since you asked, here I am. I give my children iPhones. I like having certain family controls over what they use, and further controls over what appears in the app store to begin with. I like having a single vendor for all my software purchases, that I can trust to issue refunds and discontinue subscriptions promptly. I spend all day thinking about computers, I don't want to also be my own IT…

> I give my children iPhones. I like having certain family controls over what they use, and further controls over what appears in the app store to begin with.

Okay.. then their opinion is what's relevant here, not yours.

> I like having a single vendor for all my software purchases, that I can trust to issue refunds and discontinue subscriptions promptly.

Weren't they in hot water recently for forcing developers to use their deceptive subscription trial system?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#126
Fundamentally, scale does matter.

If you have a small pub in the middle of nowhere you can be a selective as you want. If your pub chain feeds 50% of the people in the country you damn right will have to be heavily restricted in what you can do.

It doesn't matter if it's monopoly or not. After you cross a threshold the rules should be different and it's just amazing Apple has been allowed to grow so big with basically no oversight.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#127
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raises hand . I don't wanna have to worry about stupid computer shit when I'm just trying to use my iPad or iPhone as a tool to accomplish something else. Drawing, playing music, reading, writing, edutainment for the kids, very occasionally a game. Maybe the odd SSH session. If I decide I want some software to help me with any of those things I just want it to be in the App Store, and I just want it to use the App St…

Nothing what you say has absolutely ANYTHING to do with you being locked out from ever running your own software on Apple devices. This is a completely false argument you're putting up - you can HAVE all of those protections while STILL having the option of replacing protected software with less safe one. Please stop peddling this false argument.

It's not false though? Games are a thing. In the sense of how systems run and how actors make decisions in it, not in terms of video games. Any change that makes it convenient to run a competing app store will almost certainly change the experience of using iOS, even for those who choose not to use an alternative app store.

If there's a way to allow easily & conveniently running one's own software without letting competing app stores work, I'm all for it. In fact there is a way to run your own software, it's just inconvenient, because time-limited so you have to re-install it periodically, which effectively kills any possibility of running a successful app store via that method.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#129
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raises hand . I don't wanna have to worry about stupid computer shit when I'm just trying to use my iPad or iPhone as a tool to accomplish something else. Drawing, playing music, reading, writing, edutainment for the kids, very occasionally a game. Maybe the odd SSH session. If I decide I want some software to help me with any of those things I just want it to be in the App Store, and I just want it to use the App St…

Nothing what you say has absolutely ANYTHING to do with you being locked out from ever running your own software on Apple devices. This is a completely false argument you're putting up - you can HAVE all of those protections while STILL having the option of replacing protected software with less safe one. Please stop peddling this false argument.

You're right in theory, but possibly not in practice.

Consider two vendors: A and G.

A provides a full walled garden. G provides a walled garden, but lets you side-load whatever you like, you can ignore the apps in the garden.

Everyone making apps for A puts them in the walled garden, so if you own an A, you buy an app from the garden.

For G, vendors decide for themselves whether to use the walled garden. Many choose to sell direct and avoid both the markup and the hassle of getting their apps approved.

They also get to make even more money by embedding surveillance capitalism into their apps if they sell direct. Or include completely unmoderated and unregulated adtech.

As a user, isn't G better than A, since I have the choice?

It is better than A, provided that every app in A's walled garden is also in G's walled garden. However, if in practice the apps I want to use are in A's walled garden, but sold direct on G to avoid the 30% hit, then in practice, as a user, I am better off with A if what I want are apps from the walled garden.

Of course, I can always do my research to figure out whether a side-loaded app on G is safe to use. But if what I wanted was to buy apps without having to think about them, then I can be better off with A in practice even though in theory, G provides everything A provides, and more.

Now, is there really a problem getting all the apps I use on A from G's walled garden? I don't personally know, since I don't want to go to the trouble of sorting out what is available in G's store versus what I have to sideload. So there's plenty of room to argue that in practice, G is superior to A.

But I do not think it is necessarily superior.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#130
post #6

In the spirit of this particular story, I'd like to ask HN the following question: Should closed hardware (that owns its entire stack) even be legal to sell? Yes, it's legal today but should we make it illegal? To try another example besides Apple iPhone, consider the $35000 Prima Cinema movie server to play 1st run movies at home on day of release: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22prima+cinema%22&source=ln... In m…

As long I own it the vendor should unlock it, it the past the phones were locked to work only with SIM cards from the provider you bought the phone, when the contract expired the phone still remained locked and you had to find someone to unlock it for you, Then (hope my memory is not mistaken) something changed(probably laws) so carriers had to provide you with a code to unlock your phone when the contract was over. I think should be the same with game consoles if and only if they are subsidized , when I paid the full price then is my hardware. Preventing piracy should not affect my property rights and hardware should not brick itself if somehow detects I want to use it as I want. If Sony does not like this they could rent me the hardware for cheap or free because the bastards are locking already online features behind subscriptions.
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