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Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

newscientist.com

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Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#121

Post by stared »

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

Ego-death might be blissful (everything is one) or an cosmic horror (everything is nothing). For descriptions of both states, I recommend "Realms of Unconsciousness" by Stanislav Grof. The latter can trigger an episode of depression.

On a personal note, depression is not only about anxiety, or any beliefs about oneself. It may stem from understimulation. In this case, lowering input (as with meditation) is unlikely to help.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#122

Post by mordechai9000 »

chromatin wrote: post #61
JesseMeyer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meditation is a blade with no hilt. I _accidentally_ fell into a vipassana state of mind after the first time trying a particular religious chant, seriously, from out of the pains of boredom as a 20 year old. At the time I lived nearby mountains, and after 'coming to', I saw them through the window. I cannot describe to you the overwhelming feeling of beauty and awe that crashed over me. It was as though this was the…

Great comment, although Judy Collins’ recording (which came first) is far better than Joni Mitchell’s :)

I agree, it's far better than her studio version. But Joni Mitchell wrote the song. There's a video on YouTube of her performing it live, and it sounds a lot like the Judy Collins version, strangely enough.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#123

Post by kumarvvr »

Pyramus wrote: post #88
dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. That's a very broad statement given that there are many different types of meditations with different aims, religious/non-religious, with varying degrees of scientific evidence. What I can say is, that mindfulness-based interventions, where meditation usually represents the formal "training" aspect, have…

> there are many different types of meditations

I am really curious about the origins of these "types". Who actually came up with these things? The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. However, now, it seems to have become a fad, with charlatans and marketers overwhelmingly using it to scam people.

I see the same with the so called "yoga".

But I have an open mind. There might be actual research that develops the concept of meditation. Would really love to see actual evidence. Like papers, books, etc.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#124

Post by lorthemar »

This is similar to how yoga affects your body. The first step of mending something is awareness. If you know what's broken you can fix it. Many people who start doing yoga start feeling worse at the start, they realize what's wrong with their body, but if they push on, it gets better. Perhaps something similar can be said for meditating. Also, just blindly trying to meditate or other online ways are not actually meditation, but that's another discussion.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#125

Post by Igelau »

mtalantikite wrote: post #116
dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

“which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being.” This is very important to point out and I think is actually the big trap when approaching meditative practices. I fell into this nihilism trap when I was starting meditation in college and I abandoned my practice almost completely for the next 10 or so years. It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. The latter is an e…

> It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self.

I think part of the issue is that the words/concepts really don't translate into modern english well at all. Another example is how frequently the first of the Four Noble Truths is misrepresented as "Life is suffering". We don't have good ways of saying or explaining shunyata or dukkha that preserve the nuance of the concepts.

Edit: Thich Nhat Hanh is always a solid recommendation. I'll have to find his commentary on the heart sutra.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#126

Post by LisperFan »

For a couple years I practiced meditation from 30 minutes to a couple hours per day. I was introduced to it when I started practicing the Wim Hof method for health reasons. I tried to adhere to a zen style of emptiness. It made me extremely happy, greatly increased my satisfaction with life and improved my relationship with my wife.

The downside for me came when I was driving or in public. I became very anxious because I would sometimes feel my thoughts drifting away as they did when I meditated and I feared I would lose my ability to control myself. I had some mild anxiety prior to meditating (never while driving tough) but it was greatly amplified during this time. I eventually stopped meditating due to some unrelated circumstances (basically not having enough free time), and my anxiety virtually disappeared. My overall happiness has decreased and I have resumed some self destructive behaviors (such as occasional binge drinking) . Not sure if I will ever pick it up again. I would probably be much better off if I had some actual instruction and someone to discuss these issues with.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#127

Post by amanaplanacanal »

DarthGhandi wrote: post #41
nabla9 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to add that for some people the 'freak out' is psychosis, or other serious mental condition that needs immediate treatment. There are many people who come into meditation to fix something because they have a sense that something is going wrong with them. Meditation has become very popular and there is strong incentive to avoid mentioning possible negatives. Then you just ship out damaged people from the b…

> needs immediate treatment What percentage of cases that take that advice end up on the ever expanding array of drugs with unknown side effects? We're conducting a massive experiment with the mentally ill right now feeding them experimental pharmaceuticals and I get the strong feeling we will end up being judged just like lobotomies were.

Unfortunately you can only give the treatments you have available. Maybe someday in the future we will have perfect treatments for all of our mental and emotional ills, but that day isn’t today.

Unless maybe you are suggesting we should do nothing, instead?

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#128

Post by Trasmatta »

stared wrote: post #121
dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

Ego-death might be blissful (everything is one) or an cosmic horror (everything is nothing). For descriptions of both states, I recommend "Realms of Unconsciousness" by Stanislav Grof. The latter can trigger an episode of depression. On a personal note, depression is not only about anxiety, or any beliefs about oneself. It may stem from understimulation. In this case, lowering input (as with meditation) is unlikely t…

I've experienced the latter (cosmic horror from ego death) and it was the worst experience of my life. From drugs, though, not meditation. But it was pretty similar in character to the "dark night of the soul" that I've heard some people have experienced from meditation.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#130

Post by zepto »

Pyramus wrote: post #88
dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. That's a very broad statement given that there are many different types of meditations with different aims, religious/non-religious, with varying degrees of scientific evidence. What I can say is, that mindfulness-based interventions, where meditation usually represents the formal "training" aspect, have…

I know it can seem like a middlebrow dismissal to ask for supporting evidence, but in this case I think it’s important.

You’ve dismissed the parents view (and import of the linked article) as overly broad, and you have asserted the existence of an evidence base to support this.

Is there any summary of this evidence that you think is compelling?

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