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Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

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Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#81

Post by pc86 »

exhilaration wrote: post #2

Dear parents: never let your kids lie, at any age. It might be cute when they're 3 or 4 or 5, but if you don't gently tell them that "we don't tell lies, we always tell the truth" it will become a habit they will carry into adulthood.

Any advice that has the word "never" or "always" in it is nonsense a large proportion of the time.

Everybody lies. Sometimes it's good, e.g. in order to avoid someone having a surprise spoiled. Or sometimes it's inconsequential, like telling someone that you're fine because you don't have the mental energy to get into what's bothering you (and you know they won't let it go if you were to just say that). Sometimes it's bad.

Telling your kids "we always tell the truth" is a lie, because you don't. And it has a high likelihood of (as a sibling comment said) making them unprepared for people who do lie, at least while they're still young. And you can bet that the first time they catch you in a lie, it will be that much worse.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#82

Post by elwell »

and_statistics wrote: post #29

I am a pathological liar. From the small scale (What did you do yesterday? Completed a videogame) to the large scale (lying about my job) to the extreme (multi-year affairs). How does one stop?

Well assuming you're telling the truth here, I would ask: why do you want to stop? If your answer is a strong one, hold onto it. Hold onto that purpose through the wave of reckoning that will come by exposing all your lies. If you don't have a strong reason, then you may have to go through greater pains before you finally humble out. Psalm 51:17

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#83

Post by mcv »

elwell wrote: post #69
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had one who would tell outrageous lies, growing from simple comments. It was ludicrous. "This window is a long way up" I'd say. "Some animals can make that jump" he'd come out with. "Kangaroos can do it." "No, I don't think they could. It's too far up?" "Sure they can. I saw one do it! You calling me a liar?" It was exhausting, the nonsense he'd spout. The first time I'd encountered such an obvious prevaricator. I…

Are you calling him a liar?

I think that's the kind of question that always deserves a 'yes'. Nobody honest would ask that.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#84

Post by mcv »

whatshisface wrote: post #79
wittyreference wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhm... good? A basic facility with lying is a fundamental social skill. Unless you intend for your children to be socially awkward / socially ineffective, lying is necessary. The point, much like physical strength or any other sort of double-edged human ability, is to plug it into their broader moral framework, to guide when and for what purposes and to what degree.

> lying is necessary. I hear this a lot but do you have any examples?

Maybe it's that claim that's the necessary lie.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#85

Post by phaedrus »

whatshisface wrote: post #40
stared wrote: post #9

As an Aspie, (almost) every neurotypical person seems to be a pathological liar, not able to make a small talk without committing a few lies. Examples: "I am fine, thanks", "You look great!", "It is a wonderful idea!", "You are our best client", "For our company privacy is a priority", etc, etc.

Your first few examples aren't lies, they're just expressions of the undocumented wide definition of "fine," "great," and "wonderful" in natural English language. "Fine" means "not dead or suffering from fatal problems," and "great" and "wonderful" both mean "anything better than average or my expectations." Your last two are closer to lies, though.

I struggled with this for a long time, for example if someone asked what time it was instead of saying "it's 4pm" I'd say, "It's 3:57... no wait now it's 3:58" because I felt like saying 4:00 would be not exactly true. Similarly my answers to other things could become so convoluted with included details that ironically people would assume I was lying (snowing them)!

What allowed me to adapt my brain to the imprecision people expect was to realize that anything you say necessarily leaves out more details than it includes. You can't get all of your mental state or the state of the world into words even your listener had the patience.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#86

Post by happytoexplain »

qmmmur wrote: post #24
HenryKissinger wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just business talk, not lies.

if it's not the truth it's a lie.

This is an accurate portrayal of formal logic, but an inaccurate portrayal of language.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#87

Post by [deleted] »

_qulr wrote: post #70
generalk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a world of difference between "a fun myth we share with our children that we drop as soon as they outgrow it" and "a blatant lie," and that context is also important for kids to learn.

Is it a just fun myth though, or is it psychological manipulation of children by adults? After all, the premise is that Santa is secretly watching you the whole year, and you're only rewarded at the end of the year if you've been "good".

[deleted]

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#88

Post by mercer »

thdrdt wrote: post #59

"The study found the pathological liars were more likely to experience distress and impaired functioning, especially in social relationships." I am quite interested in the behavior of Trump. As far as we know he tells a lot of lies but it seems the above quote does not apply to him. Could it be that distress and impaired functioning only apply to people who are able to experience negative consequences of their lies?…

I don't get the impression Trump is lacking in 'distress and impaired functioning, especially in social relationships'. He seems rather thin-skinned, unhappy, and as far as I can tell he doesn't seem to have any real friends.

What makes you think he makes it 'work' other than being, by some measures, successful?

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#89

Post by oceanghost »

phaedrus wrote: post #48

My first wife was a pathological liar. I'm bad at reading people and tend to think the best of people, so I remained naive (or willfully blind) to it for a long time. It came to a head when a sweet, mutual friend of ours asked an innocent question about what we were doing later in the day, and my (now ex-) wife gave a completely made up answer. It wasn't a white lie to get out of something, or a deflection to keep pr…

I had the same problem with one more level of abstraction: My wife didn't know she was lying.

My ex-wife lied about everything, and like you it took me years to figure it out. Everything was always someone else's fault (it was my fault she couldn't work, my fault she didn't clean, my fault she didn't cook), she often rearranged the order of events or even fabricated events in their entirety.

Like you, I caught her mother in a bizarre "lie" that unraveled the thing. On XMas eve her mother called very hurt that we hadn't come over for out "traditional Xmas eve." She explained that we just always came over so she didn't think to call and make sure we were coming.

The fact is, I have spent every XMas eve with my own family, we have a tradition of having a party on XMas eve, and I have only missed it once due to being hospitalized. You have to understand the sheer madness of this. She imagined that we were going to come over, convinced herself that we had always done so, and that there was no reason to even let us know she expected us.

This set off alarm bells in my head, I could see that my wife was remembering things that didn't happen or altering events in her head and this was why we could never talk about anything or reach any common ground because we couldn't agree on ground truth.

Eventually I found out she had suffered some trauma, and as a result something called "confabulation" which is more or less a unreliable/false memory.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#90

Post by stared »

whatshisface wrote: post #40
stared wrote: post #9

As an Aspie, (almost) every neurotypical person seems to be a pathological liar, not able to make a small talk without committing a few lies. Examples: "I am fine, thanks", "You look great!", "It is a wonderful idea!", "You are our best client", "For our company privacy is a priority", etc, etc.

Your first few examples aren't lies, they're just expressions of the undocumented wide definition of "fine," "great," and "wonderful" in natural English language. "Fine" means "not dead or suffering from fatal problems," and "great" and "wonderful" both mean "anything better than average or my expectations." Your last two are closer to lies, though.

Well, "fine" is unlikely to cause harm. Even if it is not true, the intention is not to take advantage of someone.

Tricking your client that you care about privacy when you don't give a damn, is.

What's worse, it is pretty much normalized that in business, dating, politics etc people lie. Even if they are caught red-handed, it is considered a minor thing.

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