Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety • Hacker News Board

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#81

Post by reify_null » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

I think its important to note though, that its generally advised against to practice meditation outside of establishing a foundation in virtue/morality. Not that that is stopping anyone (past self included). I would argue that the religious texts are extremely important in grounding the meditation practice in that way. It's very easy to ascribe all kinds of super-natural ideas and beliefs to the stages of insight and the 'ego-death' at the end of those. In the end, its still you, with your perspective, your ideas, your wrongs and rights. Accepting that is the true jewel, in my eyes.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#82

Post by chasd00 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #21

culopatin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking about every aspect of my life in a very deep and logical way is what got me depressed. And what got me out of it was being busy enough that I didn't have time for that.

This is no different than using alcohol, drugs, etc. AKA Workaholic. Just another way to distract oneself from the existential dread.

what's so great about existential dread? If you don't have it then you don't have it.

I read a book on Zen Buddhism once about 20 years ago and it made sense to me. I've never read or practiced anything related since which makes me a constant practitioner in a way. Maybe i'm blessed or cursed but, to me, the endless pursuit of meditation/mindfulness is the same as the endless pursuit of anything else.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#83

Post by spaetzleesser » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

lewispollard wrote: post #69

Pyramus wrote: post #59

Reading through the comments I'd like to help clear up some of the misconceptions/confusion when it comes to the use of the terms meditation and mindfulness: There are different meditation practices, mindfulness meditation is a special type of meditation (popular are Headspace, Calm, the work of Jon-Kabat et al. and many more). There are other types of meditation not aiming primarily at mindfulness, popular examples…

The free 10 day vipassana retreats are really quite dangerous IMO. They're often attended by complete beginners with no prior knowledge, since they're free and sort of marketed as a boot camp. The actual instruction is given on decades old tapes and videos. The "instructors" there are given explicit instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes (which are very much steeped in religious Bud…

When I did the 10 day I found it interesting that on the tapes Goenka told stories about how he interacted with people and gave them detailed advice during their sessions with him. But the retreats that are run in his name are totally cookie cutter and you get no individual advice other than basically just to keep going.

When I lived in Maryland I attended classes with Tibetan teachers for a few years and they always pointed out that you need guidance through the tough spots or either your meditation effort is often wasted or even harmful.

I guess us Westerners have a tendency to simplify everything to make it easier to sell. Sometimes it works but often it gets simplified too much as it happened with yoga (our "yoga" is basically just a milder form of aerobics without any depth) or now with mindfulness. There is some benefit but we completely miss the big point.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#84

Post by bluewavescrash » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

If you are feeling more fully, through removing your mental blocks, then the fear is going to increase. That is necessary for it to pass through and eventually go away.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#85

Post by chasd00 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

loxs wrote: post #78

hitchhiker999 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.. many would strongly advise against avoiding those emotions, and possibly getting help / ideas / guidance on how best to defuse their affect on you. There's a significant difference between understanding the political horrors, or knowing that cancer is a problem - versus being terrified of thinking about these realities.

Well, yeah, I hear you. But for the past 5 years I have progressed from panic attacks and benzodiazepine dependance... to mostly "nothing" by just "avoiding" the anxiety. I sleep all night, I am much more happy with my work, etc. All of this, just because of taking the "right" decisions, which are mostly avoiding stress, like switching jobs, improving my physical fitness, allowing myself to be lazy etc. Yeah, it may…

you are allowed to choose, don't let this thread or anything/anyone else convince you otherwise. ever.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#86

Post by kayodelycaon » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #30

dTal wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>usually has positive effects in the long run Yeah, citation needed for that. Because "people often have meltdowns and need professional therapy" isn't really encouraging.

Note: I'm not a psychologist/psychiatrist. Afaik this is not unique for meditation, initially therapy sometimes has to focus a lot on "opening up", getting a person to talk and break down internal barriers, or repressed feelings. This leaves the person worse off for a while until the therapy can leave them better in the long term by dealing with these issues and emotions instead of just pushing them away. I can imagi…

Therapy of this type is usually done in a controlled environment for this purpose. Both patient and therapist are aware of what’s happening and know what to expect.

Being guided through facing trauma and having it minimized in a controlled manner is vastly different than facing the full intensity unprepared with no one to rescue you if it goes badly.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#87

Post by silveroriole » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

shekharshan wrote: post #37

silveroriole wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has literally re-programmed my mind How so? What’s different? I’ve never been able to get a clear explanation of the benefit of meditation.

The problem stems from the fact that the initial translations of the Pali Canon to western languages comes from German monks who understood Pali well but could not find appropriate words in western languages to capture the semantics. Mindfulness technique was used for at least 2000-3000 years before Buddha. So words used in the Pali canon have an etymology associated with them that cannot be easily captured in wester…

Do you think there is an advantage in using meditation to achieve a state where you can manage your thoughts, vs other techniques like CBT? It seems to me that most people don’t need the abstract/spiritual concepts like there not being an I, whatever that means. Your comment implies that understanding the abstract concepts is the real point of meditation, and I still don’t see what the benefit of that is - unless it’s just a very mystical way to say that we don’t have fixed, unchangeable personalities and we should worry less about our ego.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#88

Post by Pyramus » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:40 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death.

That's a very broad statement given that there are many different types of meditations with different aims, religious/non-religious, with varying degrees of scientific evidence.

What I can say is, that mindfulness-based interventions, where meditation usually represents the formal "training" aspect, have a significant and growing evidence-base.

I agree there is no panacea, however in my opinion the risk/reward ratio of mindfulness meditation is astonishingly positive!

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#89

Post by lukaa » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #54

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

>It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. This is true for far Eastern styles of meditation, but it's not true for Christian meditation[1]. It aims to fill the mind rather than to empty it. In general Christian meditation is practiced more by the various Eastern Christian Churches, but there are Western traditions as well. I'm by no means an adept…

Yes, in Catholicism there are Jesuit spiritual exercises tailored both for priests and shorter for ordinary people, similar in orthodoxy. I think protestants lack that element and that's why meditation is so catchy in America.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#90

Post by pmoriarty » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:46 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

It's a mistake to think that "meditation" is only a religious practice or that it has only one aim. There are many forms of mediation, with many different aims, some religious, some not.