Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity • Hacker News Board

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#51

Post by Cthulhu_ » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

buzzy_hacker wrote: post #17

Don’t take the following too seriously, but studies might preselect for liars. You usually need to meet certain criteria to be eligible and participants may fudge their answers to participate. I’ve done food testing on and off through the years and you always need to answer some questions beforehand to determine eligibility. If you gave a “wrong” answer, the survey-asker would say something like “Are you sure?”, prom…

Wouldn't be surprised if this is down to people trying to conform, to answer what is expected of them, or to try and answer what others have.

There was a study I saw the other day, may have been Explained on Netflix, where six people were asked a simple question ("which line is the same length as this one"); five were in on it and intentionally gave the wrong answer, the sixth, the actual person under test, would follow the 'consensus' answer in 75% of cases (after three or four others answered with the wrong answer). Herd behaviour is a thing and probably hard to correct for.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#52

Post by ancarda » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

kingkawn wrote: post #39

_qulr wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger problem is the parents. Let's start with Santa Claus. Blatant lie. Parents teach kids that lying is ok from a very young age. Abolish Christmas, and then get back to me.

Christmas is a primary method of indoctrinating people into scientific rationalism. The childhood imagination is fully engaged by this effort, unlike any other, to create the illusion of Santa Claus. As a kid it is a sort of bliss. Then as a sign of the transition to adulthood the growing child comes to realize there is no Santa. No time for mourning though, the growing youth is immediately brought into the fold and…

I find it fascinating how kids, without being told, eventually realize that Santa Clause isn't real. Is it because they never get to see him? "Mall Santas" are a common thing all over the world, so I don't think it can be that.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#53

Post by wolfgke » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

stared wrote: post #9

As an Aspie, (almost) every neurotypical person seems to be a pathological liar, not able to make a small talk without committing a few lies. Examples: "I am fine, thanks", "You look great!", "It is a wonderful idea!", "You are our best client", "For our company privacy is a priority", etc, etc.

> As an Aspie, (almost) every neurotypical person seems to be a patological liar, not able to make a small talk without committing a few lies.

Having a degree both in mathematics and computer science makes me have an often unerring eye for both potential hidden bugs in code and lies that people tell all the time. So, I can share your sentiment.

I often think: How can people become good at math and/or programming, where they have to learn to become very precise and truthful, if they are surrounded by (also "white") lies all the time. Yes, I particularly have all those politicians in mind who, on one hand, claim how important STEM skills are, and, on the other hand, lie all the time.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#54

Post by JoeAltmaier » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #23

I had a friend in college who did this, lying frequently about even inconsequential things. I asked him about it, and he said that he rarely lied to get an obvious direct advantage over someone like we imagine. Rather, he mostly just enjoyed knowing that other people were operating under false info, very much like dramatic irony except in real life. It was weird, and I don't think it served him well in the long run.…

I had one who would tell outrageous lies, growing from simple comments. It was ludicrous. "This window is a long way up" I'd say.

"Some animals can make that jump" he'd come out with. "Kangaroos can do it."

"No, I don't think they could. It's too far up?"

"Sure they can. I saw one do it! You calling me a liar?"

It was exhausting, the nonsense he'd spout. The first time I'd encountered such an obvious prevaricator. I wondered how he functioned.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#55

Post by wolfgke » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #40

stared wrote: post #9

As an Aspie, (almost) every neurotypical person seems to be a pathological liar, not able to make a small talk without committing a few lies. Examples: "I am fine, thanks", "You look great!", "It is a wonderful idea!", "You are our best client", "For our company privacy is a priority", etc, etc.

Your first few examples aren't lies, they're just expressions of the undocumented wide definition of "fine," "great," and "wonderful" in natural English language. "Fine" means "not dead or suffering from fatal problems," and "great" and "wonderful" both mean "anything better than average or my expectations." Your last two are closer to lies, though.

Society trains you right from the cradle to become a pathological liar.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#56

Post by nkozyra » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

stared wrote: post #9

As an Aspie, (almost) every neurotypical person seems to be a pathological liar, not able to make a small talk without committing a few lies. Examples: "I am fine, thanks", "You look great!", "It is a wonderful idea!", "You are our best client", "For our company privacy is a priority", etc, etc.

Most of what you describe here falls under the umbrella of niceties/etiquette or smalltalk. It's meaningless fluff, not to be taken at face value.

How are you? (person does not actually care) Great! (person is not interested in detailing the good or bad in their life or day)

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#57

Post by generalk » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

_qulr wrote: post #13

exhilaration wrote: post #2

Dear parents: never let your kids lie, at any age. It might be cute when they're 3 or 4 or 5, but if you don't gently tell them that "we don't tell lies, we always tell the truth" it will become a habit they will carry into adulthood.

The bigger problem is the parents. Let's start with Santa Claus. Blatant lie. Parents teach kids that lying is ok from a very young age. Abolish Christmas, and then get back to me.

There's a world of difference between "a fun myth we share with our children that we drop as soon as they outgrow it" and "a blatant lie," and that context is also important for kids to learn.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#58

Post by air7 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

exhilaration wrote: post #2

Dear parents: never let your kids lie, at any age. It might be cute when they're 3 or 4 or 5, but if you don't gently tell them that "we don't tell lies, we always tell the truth" it will become a habit they will carry into adulthood.

This, ironically, would be lying to your kids. There are very few (if any) pathological truth-tellers and you are likely not one of them. Any health adult would intentionally lies in certain situations and would be considered foolish/dumb if they didn't.

Your kids will inevitably catch you lying and their understanding of "lying is bad" would become "lying is bad if you get caught" and "You're allowed to be outraged when catching others' lies".

Teaching your kids how and when to lie, now that's a very tricky thing that I don't have a grip on.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#59

Post by thdrdt » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

"The study found the pathological liars were more likely to experience distress and impaired functioning, especially in social relationships."

I am quite interested in the behavior of Trump. As far as we know he tells a lot of lies but it seems the above quote does not apply to him.

Could it be that distress and impaired functioning only apply to people who are able to experience negative consequences of their lies?

Meaning two things:

* There are negative consequences, so they experience them.

* They see the consequences as negative.

Re: Pathological Lying: Theoretical and Empirical Support for a Diagnostic Entity

#60

Post by Cthulhu_ » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

exhilaration wrote: post #2

Dear parents: never let your kids lie, at any age. It might be cute when they're 3 or 4 or 5, but if you don't gently tell them that "we don't tell lies, we always tell the truth" it will become a habit they will carry into adulthood.

We have a 12 year-old with ADHD, and I suspect he's a pathological liar; we call him out on it all the time, but even then, when we ask him a question - even innocuous things like "have you had breakfast" if he's up before we are - his first instinct / default is to answer with what he thinks we want to hear. He knows he doesn't get away with it in most cases.

I suspect there's two factors at play; one that he sometimes gets away with it, where we can't be bothered to double check, and second that he may get a little 'thrill' from lying and getting away with it, moreso than the adverse reaction from being called out on it. Mind you, that said, negative attention is also attention, so subconsciously for him it's likely a win-win.

Anyway, it's still annoying. It's not (yet) serious things, just mainly some responsibility dodging behaviour.