Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety • Hacker News Board

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#41

Post by DarthGhandi » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:01 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #29

r34 wrote: post #7

I've been practicing meditation for several years now. The phenomenon described in the article is very obvious to every practitioner - it can happen that for some time you will feel worse (actually I'm surprised that it's only 8%). It is related to psychological mechanisms of repression, which is weakened during meditation practices. That is why during serious meditation retreats (like 10 days vipassana) some people…

I just want to add that for some people the 'freak out' is psychosis, or other serious mental condition that needs immediate treatment. There are many people who come into meditation to fix something because they have a sense that something is going wrong with them. Meditation has become very popular and there is strong incentive to avoid mentioning possible negatives. Then you just ship out damaged people from the b…

> needs immediate treatment

What percentage of cases that take that advice end up on the ever expanding array of drugs with unknown side effects?

We're conducting a massive experiment with the mentally ill right now feeding them experimental pharmaceuticals and I get the strong feeling we will end up being judged just like lobotomies were.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#42

Post by tmaly » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

These meta studies always seem suspect.

The conclusion does not seem to have any provable basis.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#43

Post by tomhoward » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:03 PM UTC

r34 wrote: post #7

I've been practicing meditation for several years now. The phenomenon described in the article is very obvious to every practitioner - it can happen that for some time you will feel worse (actually I'm surprised that it's only 8%). It is related to psychological mechanisms of repression, which is weakened during meditation practices. That is why during serious meditation retreats (like 10 days vipassana) some people…

Yep, I was just chatting with a friend about our experience with this kind of thing; each of us has done large amounts of subconscious healing work over many years, and each of us has experienced some (at-times quite serious, in my case) anxiety as we progressed, to the point where you really start to question whether it's beneficial or if it's doing more harm than good.

With continued work things turned around, and each of us can now confidently say we're better for having done it, but it's very tough when you're in the thick of it.

This phenomenon is well known in traditional/unconventional healing practices; it's often referred to as the "dark night of the soul" or in Jung philosophy it's the confrontation and integration of the "shadow" [1]. In their work with LSD and holotropic breathwork, Christina and Stan Grof described this as part of what they called the "spiritual emergency" [2].

For me it was the developing awareness about the worst aspects of myself and feeling great shame over past actions and fear of committing wrong deeds in the future. It started passing when I was able to start forgiving and accepting myself and trusting that I could function in the world without succumbing to destructive impulses. But that work is ongoing.

One thing it makes me realise is that it's unwise to proselytise this kind of work to others, as you may be pushing them to undertake a journey they're not ready for. People really have to be highly self-motivated, in order to be able to endure the most challenging parts of such a journey.

[1] https://healthypsych.com/navigating-the-dark-night-of-the-so...

[2] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Spiritual-Emergency%3A...

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#44

Post by me_me_me » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:04 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #29

r34 wrote: post #7

I've been practicing meditation for several years now. The phenomenon described in the article is very obvious to every practitioner - it can happen that for some time you will feel worse (actually I'm surprised that it's only 8%). It is related to psychological mechanisms of repression, which is weakened during meditation practices. That is why during serious meditation retreats (like 10 days vipassana) some people…

I just want to add that for some people the 'freak out' is psychosis, or other serious mental condition that needs immediate treatment. There are many people who come into meditation to fix something because they have a sense that something is going wrong with them. Meditation has become very popular and there is strong incentive to avoid mentioning possible negatives. Then you just ship out damaged people from the b…

I would add to it that like anything else in the world jumping on a deep end is the quickest way to learn something but some % will drown.

Walking is a good exercise for anyone. Would I recommend a 7 day backpack though wildness... maybe not if you heard about it from a friend of a friend as a good way to reconnect with the nature.

> People should seek professional mental help if they need and not to try some intensive meditation retreats that drive them into the walls.

Absolutely.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#45

Post by ryaan_anthony » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:05 PM UTC

When i exercise or try to meditate i just wind up thinking about things i need to do, and i typically abandon my workout to go do it. It can be as simple as picking up a dirty sock or putting away a coffee cup.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#46

Post by tokai » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:05 PM UTC

mg wrote: post #17

They found that about 8 per cent people who try meditation experience an unwanted effect What does that even mean? That 8 percent of people who try meditation experience something "unwanted" within a certain time afterwards? Is that different from a control group? Which control group? When you look at 100 random people people with the same situation and instead of letting them meditate let them go for a walk instead…

At the end of the article it says:

"Journal reference: Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavica, in press"

So its not available yet. You'll find it here when/if its accepted.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/16000447/0/ja

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#47

Post by searchableguy » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:08 PM UTC

Mo3 wrote: post #32

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

Can confirm from personal experience. Even a lot of vipassana meditation by itself can send you into psychotic states when you're not ready for all the insight yet. I came very close to psychosis once, experienced ego death, broke down mentally and had to spend 2 months in a depression ward. Cannot recommend. On the other hand, I met my now-wife in the depression ward, which in the "active" phase right before my admi…

I know few people who recommend mindfulness and meditation. It feels so pretentious and religion-like. Some people totally feel brainwashed. I had a friend who believed abuse would go away if you let it go and he was being abused for years. It's a common thing I found in my anecdotal group.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#48

Post by bobthechef » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:10 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

"Meditation" isn't one tradition. I know that it has become associated with Eastern practices, but there are others like the Catholic/Christian tradition like the one described in "The Ways of Mental Prayer" by Lehodey".

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#49

Post by me_me_me » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:10 PM UTC

f6v wrote: post #13

shekharshan wrote: post #11

I would be interested in finding out who funded the study and wouldn't be surprised with big-pharma behind it. I have been meditating for 7 years now. I would still consider myself an intermediate level meditator. It has literally re-programmed my mind. Having said that, I read the Pali Canon and follow instructions from Buddhist teachers all over the world.

It’s the same as 100 year olds saying their secret to longevity is eating marinated peaches - not statistically significant.

Maybe this is true, but now I have craving for a marinated peach, thank you mr big peach

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#50

Post by corty » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 1:12 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

Agreed. And before anyone interjects something like: "But medical professionals recommend meditation!"

Meditation for medical purposes is almost always just a relaxation technique, e.g. autogenic training. The rest, beyond relaxation, is rarely recommended and usually frowned upon.