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Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

handmade.network

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Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#11

Post by arcin »

phtrivier wrote: post #8

TL,Dr : knowledgeable, skilled programmers writing semi-confidential software in C for mostly a single OS, by themselves, with total control of the feature set and release schedule, can produce pretty fast binaries. Which is great ! I just don't know how to transfer that to building software as a team with multiple skillsets, unknown feature set (because market feet is still searched for) aggressive schedule, (We don…

For me, it's just about learning from others or getting in touch with the part of myself that was excited about programming.

I worked in web development for a few years (2010-2015) and then left to start a company with a friend (mid 2015). We decided to build audio reactive visualization software written in C/C++/glsl, way different from where web development was and is (still do web stuff but primarily backend services for our app and React for the sites).

The industry we're in focuses primarily on international music festivals (burning man, boom) and specialized art installations/exhibits. We were successful and now we have employees, a vibrant community, ambitions plans for new products, and aggressive deadlines.

I say that only to point out that work is work. Whether you're working for someone or working for yourself, you can always find things to stress about and reasons to push yourself to the brink of burnout.

As corny as it sounds, Handmade hero has been a reminder of the reason I quit my job 5 years ago to do something technologically and emotionally challenging. It keeps me in touch with the younger me that that just wanted to learn everything I could about programming, web/native/embedded whatever.

To your point, though, it definitely is not for everyone. If you see software as simply a means to an end, then there is nothing wrong with focusing on components that make products viable. I enjoy the craft but I also understand you can't have success by being precious about every little technical detail.

Just wanted to share my experience. I wish I would have come across something like handmade sooner in my dev journey.

Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#12

Post by Vai1sail »

jgrahamc wrote: post #10
Vai1sail wrote: post #9

Damn, this place looks amazing, it looks like El Dorado in a sea of despair, for someone being used to make the same points than this manifesto and being looked as a weirdo in response. Sadly they block Tor users, because they use Cloudflare. Maybe we're not that much on the same page after all.

Cloudflare doesn't block Tor users by default and I just visited the site using TBB: https://imgur.com/a/GHpbvTD

Are you kidding? Or is it corporate speak, like "it does not block Tor, only 99% of its users"?.

Cloudflare is what makes the web unusable for Tor users. Every two websites you try to reach, yup, blocked by Cloudflare. The fact that you try to deny it makes it painfully obvious how there is no hope for Cloudflare. Sorry, I can't wish any good to your company.

Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#13

Post by senko »

Why is that we praise hand-crafted objects in the real world while at the same time deriding such hand-crafted code as a quaint curiosity that can only make sense as a hobby of the hopelessly romantic?

Do we compare your local carpenter with IKEA, or that delicious, nutritive and healthly meal you cooked with McDonald's, in terms of pure (developer) performance?

Do we obsess over how a handmade jewelrer can't scale operations to five continents?

Why do we copycat every process or idea from tech behemoths but laugh when someone tells us that maybe a chat client shouldn't gobble up gigs of RAM?

In the real world, both craft workshops and assembly lines have their place. Maybe that should be true for the digital world as well.

Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#14

Post by TheUndead96 »

senko wrote: post #13

Why is that we praise hand-crafted objects in the real world while at the same time deriding such hand-crafted code as a quaint curiosity that can only make sense as a hobby of the hopelessly romantic? Do we compare your local carpenter with IKEA, or that delicious, nutritive and healthly meal you cooked with McDonald's, in terms of pure (developer) performance? Do we obsess over how a handmade jewelrer can't scale o…

I agree 100%. I see many comments here critiquing the fact that this type of programming does not scale. Modern programming methodologies and this low-level hobby programming can coexist in the world.

Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#15

Post by jasode »

senko wrote: post #13

Why is that we praise hand-crafted objects in the real world while at the same time deriding such hand-crafted code as a quaint curiosity that can only make sense as a hobby of the hopelessly romantic? Do we compare your local carpenter with IKEA, or that delicious, nutritive and healthly meal you cooked with McDonald's, in terms of pure (developer) performance? Do we obsess over how a handmade jewelrer can't scale o…

>Why is that we praise hand-crafted objects in the real world while at the same time deriding such hand-crafted code [...] In the real world, both craft workshops and assembly lines have their place. Maybe that should be true for the digital world as well.

I'm not sure what the complaint is here. The concept of "hand-crafted software" _is_ being praised. Consider:

+ the domain url exists : https://handmade.network/ ... this means some enthusiasts spent money to host a focal point for showcasing the work to others

+ the submission is currently on the frontpage of HN ... which means it was upvoted many times (more than 50+ as of this writing)

+ comments in this thread showing appreciation of it

Are you annoyed that there isn't universal absolute flattery because a few want to mention caveats of tradeoffs? Well, that's true of any piece of technology/method.

Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#16

Post by senko »

jasode wrote: post #15
senko wrote: post #13

Why is that we praise hand-crafted objects in the real world while at the same time deriding such hand-crafted code as a quaint curiosity that can only make sense as a hobby of the hopelessly romantic? Do we compare your local carpenter with IKEA, or that delicious, nutritive and healthly meal you cooked with McDonald's, in terms of pure (developer) performance? Do we obsess over how a handmade jewelrer can't scale o…

>Why is that we praise hand-crafted objects in the real world while at the same time deriding such hand-crafted code [...] In the real world, both craft workshops and assembly lines have their place. Maybe that should be true for the digital world as well. I'm not sure what the complaint is here. The concept of "hand-crafted software" _is_ being praised. Consider: + the domain url exists : https://handmade.network/ .…

Yes, it's being praised here (however this is also in the "hobby" context, supporting my argument somewhat).

But what I am saddend, more than annoyed, about, is that it's extremely lopsided in general.

I don't have a tally, but reading HN and other tech sources (HN is not an outlier here), these kinds of stories are buried under the mountain of articles and resources that hype up the "software industrial complex" (for lack of better description).

Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#17

Post by coldtea »

willvarfar wrote: post #2

So the bottom of the linked article says 2016, which made me immediately think 'old!' It makes complete sense for the manifesto to be timestamped, but the surprise was that I didn't realise I was reading the manifesto rather than this actually being the normal landing page... there's no title or anything and HN usually links to homepages. But a quick glance at the forum and the homepage shows there's activity there s…

>So the bottom of the linked article says 2016, which made me immediately think 'old!'

Only if you're 20-something or less. If you're 40 something, even 2000 is not "old".

Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#18

Post by gridlockd »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #6

While "handmade" code may be faster, it's also a big time sink and as a developer your job is to make tradeoffs. For most software, you should probably focus on architecture instead of the lower level of your code. Sane code and architecture solves most performance issues. This includes technology decisions, like using web tech for applications instead of the native platform. For example, Apple has had a lead of at l…

Here's the fundamental difference between iOS and Android, and it's related to memory management:

On iOS, you pay for memory management in small installments, which make your code slower overall (reference counting in ObjC/Swift), but predictably so.

On Android, you pay almost nothing for memory management until at some random point the garbage collector shows up and stops your program to clean up your mess. Your program is going to be janky.

Apple deliberately ships devices with little RAM and kills applications that use too much of it. As a developer you better pay attention, or you will be flooded with bad reviews.

Google leaves RAM up to vendors. The secret to good performance with GC is to make the heap twice as large as the data which it contains. Low-end Android devices feel low-end, not just because of slower CPUs, but also because of too little RAM.

It has nothing to do with the "JVM abstraction layer". Java code on a good JIT easily runs faster than Swift or ObjC if there's a lot of allocations involved, but the GC behavior must be accounted for to give a good experience.

Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#19

Post by Udo »

arcin wrote: post #7

The handmade hero community is wonderful. It is a portal to a lot of knowledge transfer. If you're looking to approach C/C++ in a welcoming environment and/or love getting closer to the metal, I highly recommend the community. I also recommend the handmade video series. Casey Muratori has been live streaming himself build the same game for the past few years. He try's to build everything from scratch, which is entert…

There also used to be a meetup in Seattle https://www.handmade-seattle.com/ (which has since moved online due to the pandemic situation) but in the past they had some pretty good presentations and interesting speakers. You can find some videos of them online (Youtube: "HandmadeCon" and "Handmade Seattle") although regrettably there are no recordings of last year's meetup.

Re: Handmade: A Community for Self-Rolled Performant Software (2016)

#20

Post by mrkeen »

willvarfar wrote: post #2

So the bottom of the linked article says 2016, which made me immediately think 'old!' It makes complete sense for the manifesto to be timestamped, but the surprise was that I didn't realise I was reading the manifesto rather than this actually being the normal landing page... there's no title or anything and HN usually links to homepages. But a quick glance at the forum and the homepage shows there's activity there s…

> So the bottom of the linked article says 2016, which made me immediately think 'old!'

I yearn for the day when the industry reaches a state of reliability where we see "old" as a good thing, i.e. "this problem was solved ages ago!", rather than it seeming out-of-date.

Probably not in my lifetime!

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