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Response to Google open letter

accc.gov.au

61–70 of 330 posts

Re: Response to Google open letter

#61
post #40

This is a very disappointing response from the ACCC. It seems to be extremely misleading in its own right. > Google will not be required to charge Australians for the use of its free services Google did not state this. The ACCC - the supposed detached "fair" regulator, in charge of creating this code, just made something up to suit their own ends. > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with A…

> > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with Australian news businesses

You misquoted the legislation. It says that the digital platform must provide to the news organisations:

> a list and explanation of the data that the digital platform service collects (whether or not it shares the data with the registered news business)

A _list and explanation of_ the data. Not the data itself.

> The ACCC here is straight up lying.

No, they really aren't.

Re: Response to Google open letter

#62
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean it's a search engine so it should rely heavily on third-party content in its search results. Google links to these news sites in search results and drives traffic to them. If Google grabs significant parts of news articles that users don't need to visit the sites, then Google should pay them. But Google is not doing that.

> If Google grabs significant parts of news articles that users don't need to visit the sites, then Google should pay them. But Google is not doing that. So what is AMP then?

The news site giving Google the article. As much as I dislike AMP... Google aren't the ones creating the AMP page.

Re: Response to Google open letter

#63
post #40

This is a very disappointing response from the ACCC. It seems to be extremely misleading in its own right. > Google will not be required to charge Australians for the use of its free services Google did not state this. The ACCC - the supposed detached "fair" regulator, in charge of creating this code, just made something up to suit their own ends. > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with A…

> > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with Australian news businesses You misquoted the legislation. It says that the digital platform must provide to the news organisations: > a list and explanation of the data that the digital platform service collects (whether or not it shares the data with the registered news business) A _list and explanation of_ the data. Not the data itself. > The AC…

I am not sure why you are saying this when every word I cited is literally copied and pasted from the draft legislation?

You have cited section 52M(b) as if that is the only clause in that section, ignoring 52M(a) which I have exactly quoted from. Why are you ignoring that subsection?

Re: Response to Google open letter

#64
post #40

This is a very disappointing response from the ACCC. It seems to be extremely misleading in its own right. > Google will not be required to charge Australians for the use of its free services Google did not state this. The ACCC - the supposed detached "fair" regulator, in charge of creating this code, just made something up to suit their own ends. > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with A…

Firstly on the point of sharing user data:

My reading of the draft bill matches the ACCC’s statements: it’s not saying the platform has to share any more user data than they already do, just that the platform must provide documentation of what they are collecting, and how the registered news business corporation can access any parts of that that they do make available to them. Not that they must expose more.

In Google’s original open letter, the “Your Search data may be at risk” section matches your interpretation here, and it seems to me to be factually inaccurate; I believe the ACCC’s rebuttal is correct.

That’s the main factual point in Google’s letter and in ACCC’s response.

———

But then to the rest of the letter and response, which are much more about feelings and potential consequences.

The whole purpose of the legislation is to improve alleged bargaining inequality, because the platforms have lots of information they’re not telling the news corporations. It’s not an end in itself, but is the means to further negotiations and potentially legislation.

Other than the aforecited section, Google’s letter is saying “this proposed legislation threatens us”. An uncharitable view of this would be that they depend on their position of power, and if the inequality is balanced then their business model will come under direct attack—not by this legislation, but by what follows after it.

ACCC is saying “you have implied that this proposed legislation will harm you, but it doesn’t directly do so”.

Both sides are speaking very carefully and precisely, Google saying that things are threatened and at risk, and ACCC refuting the things that Google implied (again apart from the one point that Google did actually say which ACCC claims to be factually inaccurate).

———

I believe my judgement and remarks in this comment to be impartial. Moreover I am not rooting for either party over the other.

Re: Response to Google open letter

#65
post #40

This is a very disappointing response from the ACCC. It seems to be extremely misleading in its own right. > Google will not be required to charge Australians for the use of its free services Google did not state this. The ACCC - the supposed detached "fair" regulator, in charge of creating this code, just made something up to suit their own ends. > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with A…

> > Google will not be required to charge Australians for the use of its free services

> Google did not state this.

Google did say that this legislation would:

> put the free services you use at risk in Australia.

That's implying that either the services would go, or they would no longer be free.

Re: Response to Google open letter

#66
post #6

> Google will not be required to charge Australians for the use of its free services such as Google Search and YouTube, unless it chooses to do so. > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with Australian news businesses unless it chooses to do so. I don't think Google actually made either of these claims in their letter. They didn't mention charging for services at all. They said "the free ser…

> They said "the free services you use may be at risk".

This sounds more like a threat. "If you don't give us whatever data we want, for free, then we will cut you off from some of our online services as punishment.

> Given the context, I took that to mean the quality of the service would tank if they had to share their algorithm changes.

I see this argument from them all the time and honestly, I see very little evidence of it. I use DDG exclusively now but I used Google and DDG side by side for a while as I was transitioning over, and during that time I didn't see much variation in the quality of results. If anything, being in a filter bubble made it harder to find new information.

Re: Response to Google open letter

#67
post #40

This is a very disappointing response from the ACCC. It seems to be extremely misleading in its own right. > Google will not be required to charge Australians for the use of its free services Google did not state this. The ACCC - the supposed detached "fair" regulator, in charge of creating this code, just made something up to suit their own ends. > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with A…

> > Google will not be required to charge Australians for the use of its free services > Google did not state this. Google did say that this legislation would: > put the free services you use at risk in Australia. That's implying that either the services would go, or they would no longer be free.

That doesn't mean that the law explicitly requires that.

Just that Google thinks running the service for free might not be viable.

Re: Response to Google open letter

#68
post #6

> Google will not be required to charge Australians for the use of its free services such as Google Search and YouTube, unless it chooses to do so. > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with Australian news businesses unless it chooses to do so. I don't think Google actually made either of these claims in their letter. They didn't mention charging for services at all. They said "the free ser…

> I don't think Google actually made either of these claims in their letter. Agreed. And because this ACCC response doesn't link to the letter, I think these rebuttals to non-existent claims are deceptively misleading

From google’s open letter

> Under this law, Google has to tell news media businesses “how they can gain access” to data about your use of our products. There’s no way of knowing if any data handed over would be protected, or how it might be used by news media businesses.

That seems to pretty clearly suggest Google will be forced to hand over personal data.

Re: Response to Google open letter

#69
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with Australian news businesses You misquoted the legislation. It says that the digital platform must provide to the news organisations: > a list and explanation of the data that the digital platform service collects (whether or not it shares the data with the registered news business) A _list and explanation of_ the data. Not the data itself. > The AC…

I am not sure why you are saying this when every word I cited is literally copied and pasted from the draft legislation? You have cited section 52M(b) as if that is the only clause in that section, ignoring 52M(a) which I have exactly quoted from. Why are you ignoring that subsection?

“How you can gain access to [SECRET THING]: you can’t.”

“How you can gain access to [SECRET THING]: court order.”

Given that (2)(a) says “whether or not it shares the data”, it would be bizarre for (2)(e) to mean: “oh by the way, remember that thing from clause (a) that you don’t share (and that we were totally fine with you not sharing)? You’ve got to share it now”.

Re: Response to Google open letter

#70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Google will not be required to share any additional user data with Australian news businesses You misquoted the legislation. It says that the digital platform must provide to the news organisations: > a list and explanation of the data that the digital platform service collects (whether or not it shares the data with the registered news business) A _list and explanation of_ the data. Not the data itself. > The AC…

I am not sure why you are saying this when every word I cited is literally copied and pasted from the draft legislation? You have cited section 52M(b) as if that is the only clause in that section, ignoring 52M(a) which I have exactly quoted from. Why are you ignoring that subsection?

> I am not sure why you are saying this when every word I cited is literally copied and pasted from the draft legislation?

With plenty of ellipses between them, sure!

> You have cited section 52M(b) as if that is the only clause in that section, ignoring 52M(a) which I have exactly quoted from. Why are you ignoring that subsection?

There is no section 52M(b) or (a). What are you talking about?

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