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Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

reuters.com

371–380 of 404 posts

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was an idea floated recently in a backlash against the President looking to pardon Paul Manafort. ...but it is unclear if it holds any legal water. The reality is that it is legally untested, and there's a good chance that Double Jeopardy will protect someone who's pardoned Federally, and then brought up on State charges for the same offense. I might be wrong, but I don't believe there's ever been a case of a St…

>> [the president can pardon] offences under Federal law, but not offenses under State law. > but it is unclear if it holds any legal water. The claim that POTUS cannot grant clemency for a state conviction definitely holds legal water. The plain meaning of that clause is extremely clear and its meaning is thoroughly and universally understood in the legal field. > The reality is that it is legally untested Re: POTUS…

The police officers in the Rodney King case were tried and acquitted in State court, then tried and convicted of essentially the same crime with a different name in Federal court, and the courts declined to say this violated the Double Jeopardy clause. It's not necessarily the case that the courts will allow the same thing when the State seeks to try a defendant after they are acquitted in Federal court or pardoned by the President, but it seems difficult to me to distinguish the two kinds of cases, so I'm assuming it's more likely than not that if POTUS pardons Manafort and NYS wants to try Manafort, they will be able to.

IMO the Rodney King case was a very bad precedent. It was very bad politics for the Federal courts to do otherwise, I understand, but it was not a good decision. The SCOTUS essentially held that a) Dual Sovereignty means the Double Jeopardy clause doesn't apply, b) that the courts can use the double jeopardy condition as a mitigation in sentencing. (b) can be seen as weakening the Dual Sovereignty doctrine, but (a) can be seen as a disaster because the 5th Amendment is incorporated against the States, and the Double Jeopardy clause is in the 5A, so allowing the Dual Sovereignty doctrine to overcome Incorporation doctrine seems like a gross error that puts the entire Incorporation doctrine in... jeopardy. Shall we now say that only parts of the 1A, 2A, 4A, 5A, are incorporated against the States? Which parts? This invites more litigation.

Of course, that didn't happen, IIUC. There's been no litigation arguing that if Dual Sovereignty overrides Incorporation in one case, it might in others. But it could yet happen.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is logically inconsistent. If the USA's handling of Covid is so awful, then by definition an infected person would get better treatment somewhere else, like Guatemala.

The USAs handling isn't awful because the treatment is poor, it is awful because infection rates are high. And yes, that is 100% on Trump.

you're a funny guy. hyperbole much?

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> [the president can pardon] offences under Federal law, but not offenses under State law. > but it is unclear if it holds any legal water. The claim that POTUS cannot grant clemency for a state conviction definitely holds legal water. The plain meaning of that clause is extremely clear and its meaning is thoroughly and universally understood in the legal field. > The reality is that it is legally untested Re: POTUS…

The police officers in the Rodney King case were tried and acquitted in State court, then tried and convicted of essentially the same crime with a different name in Federal court, and the courts declined to say this violated the Double Jeopardy clause. It's not necessarily the case that the courts will allow the same thing when the State seeks to try a defendant after they are acquitted in Federal court or pardoned b…

Reasonable. But returning to Snowden, “one executive wants to pardon and the other doesn’t” is pretty much by definition a case of differing interests. IMO this question is more clear-cut than typical DJ questions.

It’s just really hard for me to believe that POTUS could protect Snowden from prosecution in state courts via pardon. At the very least, a DOJ that wants Snowden in prison can side-step this whole question by leaving it to a state and keeping things out of federal court...

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police officers in the Rodney King case were tried and acquitted in State court, then tried and convicted of essentially the same crime with a different name in Federal court, and the courts declined to say this violated the Double Jeopardy clause. It's not necessarily the case that the courts will allow the same thing when the State seeks to try a defendant after they are acquitted in Federal court or pardoned b…

Reasonable. But returning to Snowden, “one executive wants to pardon and the other doesn’t” is pretty much by definition a case of differing interests. IMO this question is more clear-cut than typical DJ questions. It’s just really hard for me to believe that POTUS could protect Snowden from prosecution in state courts via pardon. At the very least, a DOJ that wants Snowden in prison can side-step this whole question…

The case up-thread was Manafort -- NY State, IIRC, wants him in jail and may prosecute if pardoned. I'm not sure which State laws Snowden might have violated, or which States might want to prosecute him. BTW, I can see an argument against double jeopardy in the Federal->State direction as opposed to the State->Federal direction: the former, if allowed, could see a defendant tried as many times as there are States + 1, and that can't possibly be in the interest of Justice.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really think you were going to get carry reciprocity anytime soon? Could you not see then, and now, that that will require sizeable Republican majorities in the House and Senate, and that there was no way for Trump to move the needle on that issue all by himself, especially after the midterms? Carry reciprocity is kind of a niche issue, lacks enough popularity, and is hard to make more popular. Well, maybe no…

Did you really think you were going to get carry reciprocity anytime soon? No, and that was just an example to illustrate a point. So if this is your one issue, It's not. You're reading WAY too much into that. It was just an example, and it was the first one that jumped to mind.

What a strange and minor issue to pick as an example. Do you have a list of promises not kept? I'm curious how they break down into ones that could not be kept because of Congress and ones that Trump reneged on.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. Wasn't it common knowledge that the Government had access to emails via ISPs and shredder well before Snowden's revelations? What was revealing, I guess was some of the technical details of how it was being done.

It was "common knowledge" in the right circles, but that's not enough for a court to find that you have standing to bring suit when the government gets to claim national security against discovery requests. In fact the lawsuit around Room 641A fizzled because the accuser didn't 'really know' what was happening in the NSA room that had split off copies of backbone fiber trunks running into it and the government didn't…

He jumped to a conclusion, not realizing that the NSA had plenty of perfectly legal reasons to have split off copies of backbone fiber trunks.

A great example is point #4, "Some beautiful misdirection", in https://blog.thinkst.com/p/if-nsa-has-been-hacking-everythin... discussed 3 days ago at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24139828

That's some ingenious stuff that is 100% legal.

Plus, it's not as if foreign data doesn't cross the USA. The USA is the best path from China to France.

Maybe they'd really prefer to take the public relations hit of everybody thinking that they spy on Americans.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasonable. But returning to Snowden, “one executive wants to pardon and the other doesn’t” is pretty much by definition a case of differing interests. IMO this question is more clear-cut than typical DJ questions. It’s just really hard for me to believe that POTUS could protect Snowden from prosecution in state courts via pardon. At the very least, a DOJ that wants Snowden in prison can side-step this whole question…

The case up-thread was Manafort -- NY State, IIRC, wants him in jail and may prosecute if pardoned. I'm not sure which State laws Snowden might have violated, or which States might want to prosecute him. BTW, I can see an argument against double jeopardy in the Federal->State direction as opposed to the State->Federal direction: the former, if allowed, could see a defendant tried as many times as there are States + 1…

> The case up-thread was Manafort

Oh, I see. I was speaking into the even further up-thread context of Snowden :p Sorry about that.

> I'm not sure which State laws Snowden might have violated

E.g., http://euro.ecom.cmu.edu/program/law/08-732/Jurisdiction/Haw...

> I can see an argument against double jeopardy in the Federal->State direction as opposed to the State->Federal direction: the former, if allowed, could see a defendant tried as many times as there are States + 1, and that can't possibly be in the interest of Justice.

+ a lot more than 1 because of Native American jurisdictions

It's a good pint, but the crime would have to occur in overlapping jurisdictions, which doesn't apply in the case of Manafort. I think even in the case of Snowden it'd be difficult to argue for jurisdiction outside of HI and maybe any states he passed through with HDDs.

I just searched for drug trafficking and computer fraud cases that resulted in multiple charges for the same act in several states. I couldn't find any particularly egregious cases.

I'm not even sure how important this is in the case of computer crime; jurisdiction gets hairy really fast.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case up-thread was Manafort -- NY State, IIRC, wants him in jail and may prosecute if pardoned. I'm not sure which State laws Snowden might have violated, or which States might want to prosecute him. BTW, I can see an argument against double jeopardy in the Federal->State direction as opposed to the State->Federal direction: the former, if allowed, could see a defendant tried as many times as there are States + 1…

> The case up-thread was Manafort Oh, I see. I was speaking into the even further up-thread context of Snowden :p Sorry about that. > I'm not sure which State laws Snowden might have violated E.g., http://euro.ecom.cmu.edu/program/law/08-732/Jurisdiction/Haw... > I can see an argument against double jeopardy in the Federal->State direction as opposed to the State->Federal direction: the former, if allowed, could see…

> a lot more than 1 because of Native American jurisdictions

Native American jurisdictions generally only have criminal jurisdiction over their own members for actions on their own land, that jurisdiction is Constitutionally an application of federal sovereignty, so where it applies it doesn't add an additional possible prosecution, just replaced (or provides an additional option) for one of the existing possible prosecutions. So, there's no double jeopardy impact.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USAs handling isn't awful because the treatment is poor, it is awful because infection rates are high. And yes, that is 100% on Trump.

you're a funny guy. hyperbole much?

Don't you find it exhausting trying to defend a president that is dumber than you? I don't know how you do it. Your partisan loyalty is not worth your mental health.

Re: Trump says he is considering pardon for Edward Snowden

#380
post #266
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardoning Snowden is not likely to be popular is his party, most Republicans aren't very big fans of Snowden. However, it is true that Trump is known for publicly "floating" a lot of ideas that he latter drops if they prove unpopular. But, if everybody cheers him for it it might actually make it more likely to happen.

The "floating" is A/B testing. Chances are, if this passes some formula of (left wing people won over) - (right wing people who hate it) > 0 then he'll do it.

Exactly. It is strange how many people who know what A/B testing is and have done it themselves are surprised when politicians do the same.
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